Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) (Page 102)

Wasn't going to bring this up, but gender isn't as easily identifiable as you think.  Do you base it on gender expression, gender identity, pieces and parts people were born with or acquired, genetics (which aren't always clear-cut either)?  What about people who are intersexed and have both male and female sex organs and prefer to consider themselves as "gender queer" rather than putting themselves in one box or the other?  Having only 2 genders to choose from forces them to deny their identity in order to participate in sporting events, or they simply can't participate at all.  I realize that these people are a small proportion of the population but is it fair to assume that gender is binary and immutable?

DH, who was born female, participates in sporting events and he takes testosterone shots to maintain his male characteristics.  He's also legally male in the eyes of the state.  He'll never be in contention for OA or AG awards.  Is it okay for him to compete as a male?  Does he have to disclose his testosterone use?  Does he have to get a TUE?  What about people like him but who are better/faster athletes?  If a person who was born female but now identifies and presents as male, has had gender reassignment surgery to give him all the male parts and none of the female parts, and uses testosterone competes in a head to head race with a person who was born as and currently identifies as female and he wins, is he cheating?  IIRC, the IOC (or some other upper-level governing body) has taken the stance that transgendered/transsexual athletes can compete as their expressed gender rather than their birth gender, but there was a big flap about it a few years ago. 

Not sure how all this plays into the conversation about the men/women/competition issue; just something to consider when talking about gender in sports.

Here ends *my* soapbox for the day.

I'm not sure this thread can handle two deep conversations in one day!

But yes, I am surprised. For starters it was federal, and not state, instructions they were following. So that explains some of the loss of a Massachusetts mindset perhaps.  But to not have a hung jury really surprises me.

As Chris said, I too love this group.

Thanks for bringing this up, Mary, as I was thinking about it a few posts back.  My first instinct is "Make more categories"--coming from a completely "level the playing field" standpoint.  But is that inclusive, or does it become marginalization?  I suspect it would be the latter.  Personally, I feel that if you have made the decision to, have, or are transitioning, you should compete with whom you identify.  But there will be people who don't feel that is fair (I suspect more for M to F).  And that leads to "we should have OA awards"...it's circular because now we are back to the original concern--if the OA winner is based on total OA and not gender OA, it will, most of the time, be a male.  Chris (I think it was he) is correct--each of us has a different view of equality, level playing field, etc even if we are just talking about sport (not career advancement, etc etc).  I still don't have an answer--just respect for all.  

Just one small thing, I think it just has to be about the physical/chemical and leave even identification out. Because for instance someone who's sex is female and identifies as female gender but is having hormone therapy would be breaking the rules. 

Wasn't going to bring this up, but gender isn't as easily identifiable as you think.  Do you base it on gender expression, gender identity, pieces and parts people were born with or acquired, genetics (which aren't always clear-cut either)?  What about people who are intersexed and have both male and female sex organs and prefer to consider themselves as "gender queer" rather than putting themselves in one box or the other?  Having only 2 genders to choose from forces them to deny their identity in order to participate in sporting events, or they simply can't participate at all.  I realize that these people are a small proportion of the population but is it fair to assume that gender is binary and immutable?

DH, who was born female, participates in sporting events and he takes testosterone shots to maintain his male characteristics.  He's also legally male in the eyes of the state.  He'll never be in contention for OA or AG awards.  Is it okay for him to compete as a male?  Does he have to disclose his testosterone use?  Does he have to get a TUE?  What about people like him but who are better/faster athletes?  If a person who was born female but now identifies and presents as male, has had gender reassignment surgery to give him all the male parts and none of the female parts, and uses testosterone competes in a head to head race with a person who was born as and currently identifies as female and he wins, is he cheating?  IIRC, the IOC (or some other upper-level governing body) has taken the stance that transgendered/transsexual athletes can compete as their expressed gender rather than their birth gender, but there was a big flap about it a few years ago. 

Not sure how all this plays into the conversation about the men/women/competition issue; just something to consider when talking about gender in sports.

Here ends *my* soapbox for the day.

I don't understand?  Someone who is born female? ("who's sex is female") and identifies as female but is on what kind of hormone therapy?  

As Chris said, I too love this group.

Thanks for bringing this up, Mary, as I was thinking about it a few posts back.  My first instinct is "Make more categories"--coming from a completely "level the playing field" standpoint.  But is that inclusive, or does it become marginalization?  I suspect it would be the latter.  Personally, I feel that if you have made the decision to, have, or are transitioning, you should compete with whom you identify.  But there will be people who don't feel that is fair (I suspect more for M to F).  And that leads to "we should have OA awards"...it's circular because now we are back to the original concern--if the OA winner is based on total OA and not gender OA, it will, most of the time, be a male.  Chris (I think it was he) is correct--each of us has a different view of equality, level playing field, etc even if we are just talking about sport (not career advancement, etc etc).  I still don't have an answer--just respect for all.  

testosterone.

There are lots and lots and lots of variations

Are you surprised by the verdict? 

I'm not sure this thread can handle two deep conversations in one day!

But yes, I am surprised. For starters it was federal, and not state, instructions they were following. So that explains some of the loss of a Massachusetts mindset perhaps.  But to not have a hung jury really surprises me.

I don't understand?  Someone who is born female? ("who's sex is female") and identifies as female but is on what kind of hormone therapy?  

testosterone.

There are lots and lots and lots of variations

Sorry, still don't get it.  Why would a female who identifies with female be taking testosterone therapy?  

Sorry, still don't get it.  Why would a female who identifies with female be taking testosterone therapy?  

To cheat.  Or to increase sex drive, just like men do.  Here's an article by the Mayo Clinic about testosterone therapy use for women.  Briefly, it's must often used to increase sex drive that's low due to surgically-induced menopause (having her ovaries removed) or after menopause for women taking estrogen therapy.