Fred D Mentor Group Part III (Page 109)

Great to hear from you Michael!  That's an amazing time for someone who hasn't been training!!!

Glad to hear that things will hopefully be getting back to being semi, kinda, sorta normal for you.    

I sent TJ a PM and he suggested about 10% of my workout yardage to be kicking just for maintenance, and 1000y if I want to see improvements.  I guess that's why I've been such a crappy kicker...LOL.

I'm going to give it a try though.  Probably about 300-500y of kicking in my main swim workouts, and I have a couple extra days where I can get to the pool for 30ish minutes so I could do the 1000y of kicking then.

I've seen the 10% come up before, and it was further described as an average of 10% across several workouts. So it could be like 5%, 5%, 20%. Not necessarily 10% every single time. And per stretches, he has said sitting on your shins w/feet pointed back before. Not sure if there is much to add. It's not snake oil, but it's not going to do as much as a lot of kicking. I'd imagine any extra things (beyond just kicking) are just like the rest of swimming. They may help a little, but gotta do it (ie kick) a lot more than we think.

He said to work on stretching simply by sitting on your ankles (and progressively leaning back) for about 30 seconds at a time, about 3 times.  And do that about a few times a day.

Well I have to go for a run and I'm running out of daylight so I'm not clicking on that yet!  I have a feeling it's not brief.  

Just FYI, "heykev" will be joining our group.

Also, just got a PM from Ron letting me know that he will start recruiting mentors for next season's groups starting next week.  So I'll volunteer to be the "unofficial" mentor just to get the group started, then we can all start updating bios.

So let's talk about running for the large and slow. 

I've now been running for two years. I was brand new to it all. I have asked a couple times over those first two years about speedwork for a guy with my profile. I was advised that really, I need to just get the miles in at whatever speed I can to get started. 

I feel like I may be far enough along now to start to vary the workouts. I have tended to run at just about the same effort, if not pace, whether going 3 miles or 10. I know that is not maximizing my potential development as a runner. 

The last two days, I tried something a bit different. It's my version of speedwork. Tell me if this is worthwhile. (And for those with memory for minutia, I promise this does not involved a weighted vest.)

Yesterday's run. 2 miles. First half mile, usual effort. Second half mile, all out sprint as hard as I could to the mile mark. Pause, cough up a lung. Jog back slowly. Total time about my usual 2 mile time, but the 1st mile was the fastest I have done in a long time. 

Today's run, my usual 3.5 mile loop. First three, usual effort. Last half mile, full on sprint. Cough up another lung, done with run. Half mile sprint at the fastest pace I've ever held more than 50 yards. 

I am recovering from strep right now, so the coughing may have been worse from it, but it was definitely a result of near max effort. 

So, is that speedwork? Is it useful? Should I try that in longer intervals or more frequent ones? Or both? 

For reference, my usual pace is anywhere between 14 to 15 minutes per mile, depending on terrain. Longer distances (over 6 miles) somewhat slower, 15:30.

The mile from the 2 miler, half regular half all-out, sub 12. The half mile from the 3.5, sub 11 pace.  

Andy...I would consider that a form of speedwork.

I'm sure others will chime in, but I would start with lower intensity and longer duration.  Maybe a 1.5 miles easy, 1 mile at 5k or 10k pace, then half mile easy.  Or maybe 2 mile easy, 3 miles at half marathon pace, 2 miles easy.

Also, if you are new to speedwork or tempo runs, I would slowly incorporate them...maybe about once a week so you can let your body adapt. 

I would also not add intensity and volume at the same time. 

I hope I'll be forgiven for inserting some advice without having followed along the whole way.

You need to find some middle ground.  Slaying yourself to the point of coughing up a lung is very rarely a good idea.  You've been running for a while now, and yes, varying the intensity in your runs is on the table, but you stand little to gain, and much to lose, by pushing yourself as hard as you describe.  I rarely suggest that people go to a track, but I'll suggest it now., because I think you need some measured regulation.  Go to a track on a day when you are feeling frisky, and (after warming up for 1-2 miles) run 6x400.  Run each of those 400 (= 1 lap) at a pace that makes you feel like a superstar for the first 100, a bit pressed for the next 100, having to concentrate for the third 100, and a bit hard to maintain for the final 100.  If you are breathing more than once per cycle by the end (once per cycle = left foot strike/breathe in, right foot strike, left foot strike/breathe out,or reverse the foot-strikes) you are probably going too hard.  For the first 4 weeks, recover from each by walking one lap.  Then you can jog a lap instead.  If you are feeling really good, (but not before 6 weeks!) job 200m instead of 400m.  But make sure that the jogging is nice and easy, or as I always say to myself "silly slow".

Unless you are training for shorter distances (400-1600M) speedwork is pretty simple and in general, 'less is more' (both in terms of volume and in terms of pace) is the phrase to keep in mind.

And yes, you will still gain a WHOLE lot more by just running more.  But if you want to do speedwork (I know it is fun) don't go crazy.  You get more benefit from appropriately paced work than from killing yourself.

I don't intend to try and destroy myself every day, but by the same token, I've just never pushed hard before, I have no idea what my abilities really are, as I have been so hesitant. I still see myself as so breakable, but I have had the ekgs and the bloodwork, and I know that even with all this fat on me, I am strong enough to take some actual pain and difficulty. I just have no real sense of what hard effort feels like, or should, with lierally zero athletic background before two years ago.

And btw, I still plan to do this distance thing, but in fact I am also trying to prioritize a short course goal. I would like to be able to do a mile and a half in under 14 minues by the middle to end of summer. And yes, I have a specific reason for that, unrelated to racing.

For my shape, where all calories burned are worthwhile, I don't believe there are any "junk miles." I just want to get serious abiut approaching run training like a real runner, not just ambling along every time, looking like it's my first run every single outing.

I am not a coach, so take it all with a grain of salt, as someone that started running 12 minute miles about 245# about 7 years ago and am now about 195# and run training miles in the 8:30-9 range (still not "fast," but fast for me)

Personally, I don't think speedwork is appropriate at this stage.   You need (IM non medical and non expert opinion) to teach your body to burn fat as fuel.  You will lose weight.  You will run faster naturally.  It's a cycle.

There was a pithy but good sig line over n ST along the lines of "speedwork is like putting icing on a cake.  You have to have the cake first."   If you want to run fast, which I understand, sign up for a 5K and cough up your lung at the end of that.

Again, just MO and I am sure others will disagree.

Jason, I don't think you should be the unofficial mentor. You should be the official mentor, or at least that's the way I would vote. You are consistent, know your $hit, are always helpful, always back your opinions with fact and bring people together. What else could a group want ?

I think I understand that. What I am saying is that I will reach 500 miles running this year, with 4 half marathons ad a half iron in there. I've been doing easy long miles. I plan on pushing my next 5k so I end up looking as torn up as the guys who win it. So between now and then, what's going to hurt me about some very short hard efforts that push me? My 5k PR so far is just a hair under 40 minutes. I'm mot expecting 8:30s tomorrow. But geez, in two years to still have 11 minute miles as a far off pipe dream? Clearly, I haven't been running. I've been lightly jogging. My half marathon PR is 3:13.

Andy, I like what Michael had to say.  You need to find that middle ground first before going to the cough up a lung stage.  (Save that for a 5k race like Chris said.)  

While I wasn't battling weight issues, I started out my running similar to you in the sense that I spent a year or two just running the same easy pace all the time.  Then I decided I needed to do some speed work because that's what the fast runners were doing around me.  I started doing balls out sprints, sprints up hills etc and it didn't take long before I was having knee and ITBS problems.  I went through that cycle twice before giving up on it.   Where I started seeing the best results was running frequently and varying paces on days that I felt good.  I never planned on going a specific speed on a particular day but if after starting out I was feeling good, I would run harder on that day - nothing like what you describe, I'm talking 30 seconds/km.  Sometimes I would do that for 1 km, sometimes more if it was a really good day.  So while nowhere near the structure Michael described, it varied the intensity for me on the days that I felt good.  

+1

Great job Michael!

Agree with this completely Jason. Now go run.