JohnnyKay and Fred Doucette's HIM/IM focused Mentor group-CLOSED (Page 12)

I believe the proper term is a "tri-bot". 

I can not even imagine. You are a machine! Do you take time off when the season is over?

bryancd - 2011-04-19 10:08 AM Wow! This is a mentor thread with some serious firepower! You are all VERY fortunate mentor'ees! Hell, i would have signed up if I had seen this earlier.

AGREE!!

I've got a couple of cycling training questions.

I feel like I am not evaluating my RPE very well during my bike rides. My plan (BT HIM beginner plan) calls for a lot of rides at RPE 2-3. I'm not sure I'm clear on what that should feel like. Am I just doing an easy spin? Should I feel my leg muscles working at all? I know for running the description is an easy conversational pace - I understand that. On the bike I can push pretty hard (for me), still carry on a conversation but then have fatigued legs when I'm done. Throw in the wind, some hills and my obsession for stalking my mph and I feel like I am blowing it. 

I'm sure part of my frustration is I have my first sprint tri coming up. I feel like I've been doing all these long slow miles and will not be prepared to push the bike hard in the sprint (bike leg is only 10 miles). This is not my A race, just a warm up. I know I shouldn't care but you know - I'm human. I don't want to blow it either.

Also, how do you pace the bike portion of the HIM? A build, steady state pace, warm up -  harder effort - cool down? I do NOT want two feel like I'm dragging two tree trunks for legs for 13 miles during the run. Should I just ride easy and get through it for my first time?

Dina, you've got lots of time to practice pacing. Bricks are going to be the best for you. It looks like you've done some longer rides but I don't see you doing any T-runs off the bike. Even 20-30 minutes would do the trick following a 2.5 or 3 hour bike ride. This will tell you if you paced the bike correctly.

In my HIM last summer I raced the bike too much and ended up disappointed with my run performance. I'm guessing lots of people have similar experiences. Hold back a little, get your nutrition in and you'll be fine. In the last few miles get the cadence up and stretch the legs to prepare for the run.

Yes, absolutely.  I really should have highlighted my last statement in that post, "Each way presents its own challenges for recovery and injury-avoidance".  There's no one right answer on volume/intensity/frequency mix for everybody because we all have different constraints, respond differently to stress and have varying ability to recover.  The general principle for training may be the same, but the practice will differ somewhat.

I'll take two complete weeks off after IMLP and another 2 weeks completely off after IMFL (so a total of 4 off weeks per year).  I'm in a build phase right now.  After IMLP when I go back to base for a bit I'll start around 10 hours / week and work up again leading into IMFL.

Like I said before, I respond well to high volume and my body recovers quickly.  I couldn't imagine doing this many hours if I did a lot of intense work, it'd be way too much stress.  Essentially I'm working on building a really big engine and pushing my aerobic threshold as close to my lactate threshold as possible. 

I agree 100% with this statement.  Whatever type of training works fo you, you need to be consistent with it. 

This really isn't any different from anybody training for an IM and is independent of how they tweak the intensity/volume equation to generate training stress.

Fred Doucette - 2011-04-19 6:01 PM

bryancd - 2011-04-19 5:41 PM

JohnnyKay - 2011-04-19 2:26 PM

kaburns1214 - 2011-04-19 4:23 PM

Essentially I'm working on building a really big engine and pushing my aerobic threshold as close to my lactate threshold as possible. 

This really isn't any different from anybody training for an IM and is independent of how they tweak the intensity/volume equation to generate training stress.

Beat me to it. That's what ALL proper IM training is about and it can be a delicate balance between volume/intensity/recovery. There are so many traps IM training can spring on athletes. Sometimes just doing miles has a benefit, sometimes it doesn't. Failing to be able to execute a key workout because you are too fatigued, which you may or may not realize, is one of the most common. There are very few junk miles in running, there can be a lot of junk miles on the bike and junk yards in the pool where we are just logging volume that serves little purpose. Remember, you are trying to win a race, not the year end training totals in your blogs.

I think this is a fascinating discussion!

Ironman is about consistent smart training, very little else!
By this I am implying training that does not lead to:
1. Injury.
2. Burnout.
3. Over-training.
4. Boredom.

What works for one does not work for another.

A good training program understands how the individual responds to training load and stress. Repeatedly doing sessions that require large recovery debts will not result in good results. Never taking a chance in training and never stressing your system will result in mediocrity.

Determining where *you* the individual are and what you can deal with physically and mentally is the key.

For *me* I have found that `I `need to avoid a lot of high intensity running. I tend to run almost exclusively in Z1 with a bit of Z2. I'm plenty fast in Z3/4, but I pay too muchg of a recovery/injury deficit to allow it for a high % of my run volume. Bike and swim are totallt different, lots more intensity!

It's taken me years to realize this, as well as a good coach.

I hope we can continue this discussion for EACH member of the group because I bet your individual situations are all different!

I think that "a good coach" is super important.  Its really difficult to self evaluate your own strengths, weaknesses and training responses.  I think a good coach can really help in creating and helping you execute a plan that will yield the best results for you as an individual.

Running -I usually am in z2/3 for longer runs (7-8+ miles).  I have not really done z1 as it feels I'm not pushing hard enough.  I feel very comfortable and I can run long in z2.  I am fairly new to heart rate training though and am learning many things as I go.  My heart rate and RPE don't always correlate as there are many other factors we've talked about that affect heart rate.  I still trust RPE over heart rate.

Biking I like to go z3/4 for most of my sessions.  I do find it's harder for me to get my HR to z3 on the trainer but much easier outside (does this seem backwards?).  For bike workouts, I'm not very scientific.  I have 3 levels, moderate, hard and all out.  For hard workouts, I do a mix of speedwork, hill repeats, and just try to vary things as much as I can, keeping the effort intense.  I do find I struggle with keeping bike intensity moderate though as I love to push harder whenever I can, especially when in the company of others.

Swimming is fairly high intensity for me, though I have not used my HRM in the pool.

I have been much more consistent over the last 3-4 years and do notice my recovery times are faster, and much easier as a result.

Great discussion going on.

My training volume and intensity has been pretty consistant...but I have noticed I'm a little burnt out because I've also raced 4 times in the a 6 week span from 2/21 to 4/3.  So that combination of training and racing recently has been a bit too much for me now that I look back on it.  In my mind they were short races...ranging from 30 minutes 70 minutes...so I shouldn't have needed to alter my training.  I suppose that's fine for one or two races...but it was a little too much for me given how hard I raced, and how hard I wanted to train in between races.

My next race isn't till 5/17.  This week is an easy week for me.  Hopefully I can regroup a bit and focus back on solid training.

I've learned to avoid high intensity running too. Well, not that I ever really ran at a high intensity - just the same intensity. Slowing down and having more runs at a low intensity has helped me avoid being sidelined by injuries. Thanks to BT for teaching me that .

Swimming is usually a mix throughout the workout. It is the only sport of the three that I feel like I can consistently repeat workouts at my max and have no negative side effects. Except not wanting to get in the pool that is. Nothing is ever sore or tired. I can get up for the next swim and do it again. I really don't enjoy sprints so much so most of my harder efforts are at zone 6-7 I would guess. Lately I've been working on trying to find a race pace instead of a cruise pace.

Cycling I can tolerate some higher intensity workouts but I don't bounce back like I do from swimming. My legs will be tired and I will carry a lot of fatigue into the rest of my workouts. Example - Monday I had a 45 min ride zone 2. I got anxious at the end and sprinted the last 4 miles home. Tuesdays swim workout felt like I was dragging a couple of concrete blocks through the pool. I've still got a lot to learn......

I tend to go medium-effort most of the time. The times when I really push myself in a workout is if I'm training with other people. Sometimes people at the pool group up for a set and if they are faster than me, I find I push myself way harder to keep up than I would otherwise. I need to do more high intensity training I think, especially on the bike.

Last night I did a group run with my IMTX training buddies. The first 5 miles we all hung together chit chatting at a reasonable pace, shaking out the fatigue from big weekend workouts. Then all of a sudden one guy decides to kick it up a notch. Then a few minutes later another guy goes to chase him down...and of course I tried to stay on their heels. Ended up being a few REALLY fast miles for me at high intensity. On solo runs, I'd rarely ever push a pace faster than 7:45.

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I have used this as a rule of thumb before. It has been great in translating my 10K time to my HM time. However, and I mentioned this in an earlier post that it fails to transfer over to my HIM run times. This is something that I am working on hard this year, and think that maybe I have been undertrained on the run and/or simply just not paced well enough or pushed hard enough. I will say last year I ran a 10K and HM a month about and came in within seconds of both times posted for a VDOT of a 44.

Been busy the last couple of days and I just walked into a great discussion so I will just echo my thoughts.

First I think Bryan, JK, and Fred nailed it about volume and training from HIM and IM with the word consistency. This means for 365 days and 52 weeks a year. Great point Fred about not being able to take a couple months off in the off-season and expect great value of fitness during the season. I don't follow an Endurance Nation plan, but I love their use of the word "out-season". I think this is critical for consistency and improvement. You don't need the 15 hour weeks in December, but you need the 1-2 swims to keep your stroke efficient and a baseline of general fitness.

One of my main goals this year above all else is consistency in training. Of all three disciplines I have followed this the most in my swim and I have seen drastic improvements both by time and in my stroke. I have noticed my run fitness and body to be stronger as well when I am consistant with my runs for several weeks. I attribute my shortcomings at IMWI last year due to an unconsistant training schedule. I wrote my own plan each week which was usually rehashed every few days and my training never flowed. My run training was weak, my bike had junk miles in it, and my swim was affected by an injury. However, this year with my central focus on consistency I already feel about 10x stronger now then I did last year, and I am getting a lot more out of eachs session.

Bryan also made a great point about volume. Forgot about that sidebar in your logs and focus on each training session counting. Don't ride your bike for 5 hours to build volume if you can gain a lot more out of a 2 hour interval ride. I always thought I had to have massive volume for HIM and IM races, but really it comes down to quality over quantity.

With that said everyone is completely different in their own ways. Some can handle high volume weeks while others can't. Some like more intensity and others like to "build a strong engine". What is comes down to really is what works for you and what benefits you the most. Once you figure this out be consistant in your training and improvements will follow.

One more detail I left out and this is in regards to long runs. My run is my weakness as is my volume. I wanted about 50-75 more miles of "base" at this point in the year, but I just have not gotten it in. Right now I am averaging about 15-17 miles a week, but want my distance to be around 25 per week. Sunday I tried something new and took a long run of 11 miles and divided it up into 2. I did a 8 mile run with a couple of harder effort miles mixed in and then ran 5k more later in the day. I felt great on the second run and recovered very well the next day.

B/c of this my 8 mile run was just over 25% of my run distance for the week so I wasn't killing myself on that run. Plus I could also get in some harder efforts mixed with distance and still have the feeling of running a bit on tired legs when I ran the last 5k later in the day.

I have never done split runs like this before, but enjoyed it greatly on Sunday and I am going to try to see how it works over the next couple weeks before I really start to add it into my training.