Obama endorses same-sex marriage (Page 12)

Exactly. It's easy to be hardboiled when you aren't familiar with actual people.

And I agree with Zedxx's point, too. I think it's great that Obama has changed his position; and he admitted exactly what you said above, basically, "We know a same sex couple and now that I know them, I can't deny them the same rights and benefits as my wife and I enjoy." Even though he is a million times more influential than I am, his opinion, at the end of the day, doesn't hold any more weight than mine or yours. He doesn't get to legalize it -- he doesn't have that kind of power.

I don't get who is hurt by legalizing SSM. I get that some churches/religious groups see it as a 'sin.' Some people think playing card games and going to movies are 'sins' too. I don't see them marching in the street and getting all upset about those activities.

Oral s*x used to be illegal in some states (maybe it still is in a few).

Interracial marriage used to be illegal. ("But what about the children??" -- but guess, what. The children are great.)

Some of my "friends" disowned me because I married a nominal Mormon. My ex-husband threatened to take my kids away from me if we moved to Utah (which we hope to do one day) because they wouldn't be 'safe.' Seriously?

People are hung up on all kinds of things. On this issue, at the end of the day, they are fighting a losing battle. People will have their rights. And we all should. We need strong families, and "family" can be defined in many different ways. (My family is an example of that -- four last names among the five of us.)

Agreed, and thanks for saying that.

I think George's formulation shows why marriages of one man and one woman can be rightly held to be a separate class under the 14th Amendment.  

As far as I can see, the events you cite regarding abolition don't explain the reason why abolition was morally correct.

My point with bringing up slavery is that I know of no one who would say that Christianity should have stayed out of the slavery issue, or the civil rights movement of the 60's, or had no right to impose a faith based understanding of the human person on others through law.

Even President Obama and Nancy Pelosi cited their Christian beliefs as at least some reason for supporting gay marriage.
That's fine, but you can't have it both ways.
Can't trot some misunderstanding of the notion of separation of church and state, as so many do, when you don't like what a faith based position on some policy might be, and then ignore the faith based foundation of a policy that you happen to agree with.

The very notion of universal human rights and justice in pursuit of securing those rights
developed out of Judeo/Christian Western Civilization.
That's not a coincidence. 

Yes, I would like to hear the answer to this question as well.

Are you saying that gay couples never breakup/divorce or cheat on their SO?

Lost in the arguing and ad hominem stuff going on in the NC thread was the fact that Obama came out today in support of gay marriage; the first sitting President with the guts to do so.  Predictably, religious conservatives were furious and many folks on the left were ecstatic.

Ralph Reed, a top organizer among religious conservatives, said Obama’s announcement was a “gift to the Romney campaign.”

Romney, a Mormon who has evolved to a more conservative position on hot button social issues, has struggled with his party's largely evangelical conservative base in the primaries. But Reed said Obama’s gay marriage support would help Romney in many battleground states.

“The Obama campaign doesn’t have to worry about New York and California,” Reed said. “They have to worry about Ohio, Florida and Virginia and I don’t’ see evidence that it’s a winning issue in those states.”

This might be the only accurate statement that has ever come out of Ralph Reed's piehole. I think, that especially in an election year, this shows some courage on Obama's part, taking a stand on an issue which may well cost him votes come November.

At any rate, the tide is turning. Slowly but surely, gay/lesbian marriage will be allowed everywhere in this country. It's only a matter of time. And there is little that Ralph Reed and his brethren can do to stop it.

I believe they are also different in the gay community where committed couples will agree to allow each other to have multiple other sexual partners. It's very rare for homosexual couples to stay completely monogamous.

I believe they are also different in the gay community where committed couples will agree to allow each other to have multiple other sexual partners. It's very rare for homosexual couples to stay completely monogamous.

Are you saying that gay couples never breakup/divorce or cheat on their SO?

Today's Rasmussen poll has Romney over Obama 50% to 43% among likely voter.
That's the first time Romney has hit 50%, and is his largest lead yet.

Once Obama finishes cashing the checks from the George Clooney shindig held the other night,
he's going to have to go back to defending his record on the issues that the voters who will decide this election actually care about.

I'm sure he'll throw more diversions out there like he did here with this issue,
but Romney is too smart to take the bait.
He'll keep coming back at Obama on the key issues
for which Obama really has no coherent response.

It's a long time still until November, but it's not trending well for Obama. 

I have never made this about the misunderstood concept of the separation of church and state, nor have I made it about keeping spiritual principles out of government. My issues is with religious ideology holding people in bondage. The ideals of freedom that fueled civil rights movement are not Christian alone or in total. Those same ideals of freedom are what is fueling this civil rights movement. Conversely the ideals that fueled the notion that blacks or women were any less deserving of the same rights afforded to white men are the same ideals the fuel the withholding of rights from homosexuals.

Adultery is not illegal and people are still allowed to get married after they do it, even in a religious wedding.

I believe they are also different in the gay community where committed couples will agree to allow each other to have multiple other sexual partners. It's very rare for homosexual couples to stay completely monogamous.

It's rare for heterosexual married couples to stay completely monogamous.

Where are you getting your data from?

Here's some reading:

Huffington Post Artice:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-vaillancourt/gay-open-relationships_b_1217880.html

Quote:

"Mikey Rox and Everett Earl Morrow, both now 30, were committed to monogamy when they met and fell in love. That was five years ago. "After a couple instances of infidelity to which we both confessed, we decided it's not realistic to expect either of us to never hook up with anyone else ever again," says Rox, principal of Paper Rox Scissors Copy and Creative in Manhattan. The legally married couple has had an open relationship for the last two years. "Who wouldn't want to be allowed to hook up with other guys and have their husband be OK with it?" he asks. "Isn't that what most men dream of, and isn't the limitation of sex with one partner in a marriage the reason why so many people cheat?" Adds Morrow: "As two men, sex isn't particularly emotional for either of us. That enables us to separate our love for one another from the occasional physical attraction we may have for another guy."

A counselor for gay men giving advice on how to have an open relationship:

http://gaytherapist-sanfrancisco.com/blog/2011/03/gay-men-in-open-relationships-what-works/

NY Times article on Open Gay relationships

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/us/29sfmetro.html

More reading:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/07/15/DD4C1EDP1A.DTL

http://www.tridd.com/docs/answers/OpenRelationshipsInGayCulture.pdf

Oh the concept of the evolution of morality.  This is something that has been evolving since before man came into his present existence, and is probably a topic for another thread.  There are many of us who believe that morality is something that came into being long before a Judeo/Western Civilization came along. 

Ok but for the most part they are still allowed to have a religious wedding in a church if they got remarried. They did not lose a right because of the sin they committed.