Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED (Page 14)

Great question, Fred.
It looks like I fall in the general consensus (so far) with the group - I don't think you have to cover the IM distances in training on the bike or the run for training effect, but I certainly do understand the desire to cover them as a confidence booster. For instance, my wife has lots of marathon experience under her belt, so she has no interest in running more than 16 or so miles in training. It has been at least 12 or so years since she has even ridden a century, so she is dead-set to over-ride the IM distance this year. We are doing an organized century next week.

I ride and run distance almost exclusively by time, as all miles are not created equally. I did not feel compelled to ride the IM distance (or even time for that matter) as I have zero problems going long on the bike - in fact I love it. I under-rode time with the thinking that the extra hour of working out would be more beneficial if it were spent on the run. Granted I have lots of years of going longer on the bike though. In my build for IM last year my longest ride was only 5 hours in high Z2/low Z3. I covered 96 miles and climbed 9000' according to Strava. I started that ride immediately following a 1:10 open water swim however. My longest brick (10 days before my IM) was a 4 hour bike in high z2 (similar climbing profile) followed immediately by a 1:45 run also in high z2. All of these long workouts were in 95+ degree heat and high humidity as well, which just adds to the training load. These types of workouts (long swim/long bike, long bike/long run) were instrumental in helping me to nail down my pacing and nutrition.

In my IM last year I felt like I was perfectly prepared - neither over or under-trained. I fueled perfectly (actually over hydrated a bit due to the cool weather and low humidity, but to no ill-effect) and I paced perfectly and hit all of my targets spot-on. It kinda makes me nervous to do the distance again as I know that is not how it usually goes down. Something that I read a while back relative to the Hansen brothers approach to long-course running is that you just don't have to do the marathon distance in training - they advocate that you only do 16 miles or so. The difference however is that you should be training to run the LAST 16 miles of the race, not the first. They feel that when most folks under-run the distance the mistake they are making is training to run the first 16 miles of the marathon, not the last. I think there is some carry-over of this philosophy in cycling, again, if you are already confident that you can comfortably cover the distance.

Hey Fred -  with this approach how much balance do you think one might need between the long rides at IM effort (where you predominantly practice pacing and nutrition) and the harder efforts (primarily building fitness)?

Sorry - I had to quoate that pic one more time. Count me in the "Officially Jealous" column!

Not to derail the conversation - since it was very IM focused, but what are the groups thoughts on HIM?  That's my goal for the year, and last year had me doing some weekends with back to back rides.  i.e. 3hrs one day at 75%, next day, similar time with 80-85% intensity.  I chose to ride a lot of short, steep hills at the end of the rides to match against the course as best as possible, but ultimately I came up way short of expectations on race day.

Not sure if it came down to a bad day, but the plan was solid, or if this year I should switch up the plan and focus on some longer 4-5hr rides and build more aerobically.  Looking for some help with this.  (sorry for the derail)

Neil, my plan was to build up to a 65-70 mile ride, and then build intensity.  For my HIM on June 2nd, I've already hit 65+ the past 3 weeks, and have added a couple of watts to each ride.  I plan to do that ride about 3 more times...and again will try to add more watts as my fitness improves.

I don't have any scientific reasons why, but I just don't feel that extending my rides to 4-5 hours at lower power efforts will help me in a bike ride that's under 3 hours (for me anyway).

This I very much agree with, and plan to try and improve my swim fitness this year.  That said, my swimming was far ahead of where I had been in prior years when it came time to race last year, and I still didn't have the ride I expected.

My first year I did this race I was okay with the result, but last year was a serious disappointment given the training I put in.  This year I'm aiming for a much different result and how I do on both the swim and bike will setup what happens on the run - btu I thought I had that covered last year...

Thanks Jason - I think part of my plan by riding longer/further than race day is to build up some of that fatigue that will carry over from the swim.  I won't really have that many opportunities to swim and ride long, so a longer ride may help to train for that a bit.  Fatigue or loss of energy is what I'm most afraid of during the HIM.

My HIM bike training consists of 2 hard days a week on the bike (usually a weekly crit and group ride), usually in the hour to hour half range and then a longer aggressive group ride in the 3-4 hour range on the weekend.  This year i will be adding a 4th ride, which will be solo on the TT bike recovery type ride, i will be targeting 1-2 hours. I do all my training on the roadie, and will change that a bit with the aforementioned ride.

My swim fitness sucked last year, It really had an impact on the first part of the bike in my half last year, not so much aerobically, but i was out there so long my legs were cramping, it took a few miles before they were firing correctly.

I will also be much better prepared for the run, as my volume is double of this time last year, time and mileage wise.

Oh and i should be 10 lbs lighter.  HA!!!

I agree with Jason about the 4-5 hour ride, i am of the school of thought that most of your rides should be at least at your HIM pace, as for me recovery comes much quicker from bike rides than runs. So i would rather go hard on the bike and go longer time and miles on the run.  Considering that thought though each person is individual, and i do not necessarily train like a triathlete, since i also do a fair amount of crit racing. I also do not race like a triathlete, i do not put it at a power number and maintain, i am trying to push the entire ride like i was solo off the front of a road race, at some point i am sure i will blow up in spectacular fashion, but i will keep pushing till i do, lol!!

Swim and a run for me today.  Technically I don't have to swim given that my next race is a DU, but hey, it still helps with the fitness.  What does everyone else have on tap today?

My HIM plan consists of 4 bike workout per week.  Now that i can get outside, my long ride (saturday) ride will be 2 hours of lots of hills building to 4 hours.  2 interval workouts (tuesday and thurs or fri) of 40-75 mins in duration, and 1 recovery ride on mondays following my long run sunday.

My issue is hitting all of my workouts due to work and family obligations. 

 I think a big day every so often followed by a total day off is great as it really builds confidence.  One of the best workout I had was when i got lost on a ride and ended up riding nearly 100 miles (meant to go 60) and i then knew i could hit my goal.   

What makes your question so good Fred is that it also  cuts to the heart of the endurance sports vs. life issue we all deal with.  For me as an overly competitive Type-A who has to balance that with my obligations as a father, husband and provider, what do you do?  For example, my daughter starts baseball this week.  She has practice saturday mornings at 9.  I will be up at 5 AM to get 1-2 hours on the trainer before riding outside for an hour so i am done by 8 and can shower, eat and be ready to coach by 9.  After 2 hours of herding 7/8 year olds at little league, can i really then expect to hit the pool for a quick 3k?  AND, then come home, eat some more, and tell wifey "hun, i'm going to take a nap... can you make sure the kids dont bother me?"  [Rudy - what do you think Karen would do?]

she would laugh you right into next years passover, then kick you in the jimmy and tell you to hike up your big girl panties.

Same thing Nanci would do.