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2009-12-12 12:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Just finished my five minute and the calculations have me at the exact same 60 minute crit power that I've been using...but that was also from the middle of the summer when I was in peak shape. So I'm taking this as a non-improving improvement and we'll see how it all turns out somewhere in January!


2009-12-12 3:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
I am 1 week shifted compared to the actual planning. Christmas week for me will be the testing week and it will be the 3rd testing week and I am going to post the progress...
Anyway some remarks in general:
  • the sessions in Zone 5 VO2max were great and left me with "tremors" on my legs Smile the 2x5' and the 5x3' are sessions I will remember. But still a bit far from what Coggan suggest on this Zone 5 sessions examples (they last more...)
  • my 4th weekly session is indoor and lasting between 1h30 and 2h30 always because I can't get out here. Temperature is quite low. What I am doing is to keep high quality alternating 10' Ironman pace (70-75% FTP) and 5-10' Half Ironman pace, continously (80-85%)
  • I see zone 3 sessions still pretty short but probably you are going to increase the length over time
  • I guess you are ignoring Zone 4 sessions because it is VO2max focused for the moment, correct?
Overall, thanks a lot for all you are doing with this winter training plan and I see weekly improvements. Ok ok I started basically from nothing but...I am sure this is the right way to go.
2009-12-12 4:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread

Ok folks, week #7 is up: http://jorgepbmcoaching.blogspot.com/

We are shifting gears; after completing round no. 2 of testing we now begin focusing on improving our 20 min power. We'll still do some VO2 max sessions this week plus tempo and long ride and in coming weeks will switch more onto our power threshold why should we work in improving our 20 min power? Well I was going to work on a detailed post for my blog but I found this article online which nicely explains the reasoning and science behind it. It also points out why working on what many athletes/coaches refer to 'base' training might be an ineffective way to train especially for those of us with limited training time.

Anyway, also pay attention to the notes and have fun!

2009-12-12 8:56 PM
in reply to: #2555852

Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread

Humm  I feel stronger and am looking forward to riding....but I seem to be stuck around the same mph avg.  I've been trying different gears and cad's and drinknig water / carbs stuff.  Any comments or pointers from anyone so far?  Missing data was learning the new meter buttons

   Miles to Key West, 2196 left → 1954.7    241.3 
   WattsSpeedCadence Gears  
WeekSESTimeMAX-WTAVG-WTMAX-SPDAVG-SPDMAX-CADAVG-CADChain ringcassetteMilesWeekly
11/7/0914527316720.215.913678421712.67 
 25030216521.315.9613677421513.3 
 360      421516.2 
 48322316718.5168881421722.464.57
test 20m12025522019.7   521310 
 275245169  9989421520.3 
test 5m335296255    421310.5 
 411021217118.116.2899142153070.8
WK316026217219.916.2104824214/15/1716.35 
 261"2021217718.116.58679421517 
 35526917320.216.310179421515 
 45525917919.816.492805217/1915.1463.49
WK413925718019.816.510285521910.8 
 2552641772016.598835219/2115.21 
 36022017318.416.410391522316.43 
 4          42.44


Edited by Puppetmaster 2009-12-12 9:04 PM
2009-12-12 9:14 PM
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Edited by trotpntbll 2009-12-12 9:17 PM
2009-12-12 9:24 PM
in reply to: #2556065

Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Yes I am going off watts.  I keep the trainer the same, I check the air pressure, staying at 110psig and keep the turns on the trainer the same.  Using the instruction I turned and jerked the wheel back untill it did not slip.  I figure that if I am off a little in the setup, at least I am off the same everytime.  Maybe after the next test, it will be different.


2009-12-13 1:50 AM
in reply to: #2555852

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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
JorgeM - 2009-12-11 11:29 PM

Ok folks, week #7 is up: http://jorgepbmcoaching.blogspot.com/

We are shifting gears; after completing round no. 2 of testing we now begin focusing on improving our 20 min power. We'll still do some VO2 max sessions this week plus tempo and long ride and in coming weeks will switch more onto our power threshold why should we work in improving our 20 min power? Well I was going to work on a detailed post for my blog but I found this article online which nicely explains the reasoning and science behind it. It also points out why working on what many athletes/coaches refer to 'base' training might be an ineffective way to train especially for those of us with limited training time.

Anyway, also pay attention to the notes and have fun!



On Q3, how can you reach 1h05' in total? 10' WU + 40' MS + 5' CD is 55'.
2009-12-13 9:40 AM
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Edited by trotpntbll 2009-12-13 9:43 AM
2009-12-13 10:26 AM
in reply to: #2556324

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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
trotpntbll - 2009-12-13 9:40 AM
Puppetmaster - 2009-12-12 10:24 PM Yes I am going off watts.  I keep the trainer the same, I check the air pressure, staying at 110psig and keep the turns on the trainer the same.  Using the instruction I turned and jerked the wheel back untill it did not slip.  I figure that if I am off a little in the setup, at least I am off the same everytime.  Maybe after the next test, it will be different.


I was told earlier (almost in at the start of the plan) that if you are going with wattage that you can modify your resistance if need be. To not change it everyday, but if the gains were forcing you to basically "spin your wheels" to up the resistance. Now I put mine higher but I'm staying there until I have to go up again, if that happens.

Put it this way, on R2 on my trainer I can hit between 70-300W (300 had a cadence of 120+), where as on R3 I can hit between 110-420W. Under that assumption, I had NO choice but to up my resistance. With the change in resistance I changed my gearing (large front cog to the small) to maintain my cadence where I feel most comfortable, 88-97. I'd say give it a whirl on the next level up in resistance, in a higher gear so you can maintain your ideal cadence.



on the 20min test, how do you pace yourself ?
Do you start with a goal try to maintain it for X minutes then push at the end ?

Are you using a Powertap to measure, a computrainer or a meter that came with your trainer ?

2009-12-13 1:23 PM
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Edited by trotpntbll 2009-12-13 1:23 PM
2009-12-13 4:25 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
trotpntbll - 2009-12-13 1:23 PM .

All that make sense/ hep?


Makes a lot of sense. Thanks

I find the period from 5 to 10 minutes the longest and hardest. At 7 I'm sure I won't make it to 20. Once 10 rolls around it seems to get easier. I will try your pacing.

I split my time between two locations, one with a computrainer, one with a trainer with attached power meter. I have to use the compu trainer for consistency since they give quite different numbers so I could not measure this weekend. I am anxious to see improvement, if any, but not anxious to do the test.


Edited by marcag 2009-12-13 4:25 PM


2009-12-13 8:00 PM
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2009-12-14 8:29 AM
in reply to: #2492759

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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Math and Physiology wizards,

Help me understand something concerning Jorge's critical power calculation. Let's suppose you have two cyclists doing this plan, Cyclist A and Cyclist B. At a testing point, their numbers are as follows:

A
5 min power test (5 MP) - 300 watts
20 min power test (20 MP) - 330 watts

B
5 MP - 310 watts
20 MP - 376 watts

Looking strictly at the power numbers, without knowing anything about how critical power is determined, one would say, obviously, Cyclist B generates more power than Cyclist A, and thus, should have a higher critical power number, right?

Not so.

If you use the formula Jorge posts on his blog, here's how it shakes out:

Cyclist A

20 MP 300 x 1200 seconds = 360000 joules
5 MP 330 x 300 seconds = 99000 joules
---------------------------------------------------------------
critical pwr = 900 into 26100 = 290 watts


Cyclist B

20 MP 310 x 1200 seconds = 372000 joules
5 MP 376 x 300 seconds = 112800 joules
----------------------------------------------------------------
critical pwr = 900 into 259200 = 288 watts

So, why is it that somebody who can produce significantly more watts for 5 minutes and a few watts more for 20 minutes would have a lower critical power? It seems to me that knowing this would provide at least a subconscious tendency during testing to "dog it" on the 5 MP just a bit so that the numbers are closer together, resulting in an artificially higher critical power.

For instance, add "Cyclist C" into the mix, who has B's 20 MP (310 watts) and A's 5 MP (330 watts). C's numbers would work out thus:

Cyclist C

20 MP 310 x 1200 seconds = 372000 joules
5 MP 330 x 300 seconds = 99000 joules
--------------------------------------------------------------------
critical pwr = 900 into 273000 = 303.333 watts

Clearly, as the gap between your 5 MP result and your 20 MP result gets larger, your 60-minute critical power score will actually get lower. The optimal result, therefore, would be to have your 5 MP and 20 MP scores be identical (clearly an impossibility without manipulating your testing), as that would result in your 5 MP, 20 MP, and 60-minute critical power numbers all being exactly the same.

So what are the physiological (and/or other) reasons why someone who's able to produce a lot more watts in the 5 MP test having a lower 60-minute critical power estimate and why the formula "penalizes" someone with significantly higher 5 MP numbers?

I ask this because in the second round of testing, I'm Cyclist B. My 20 MP went up by almost 10 watts from the Week 2 tests, but my 5 MP went up by almost 45 watts, resulting in a lower overall estimated 60-minute critical power number. VERY, VERY disappointing when I crunched the numbers.

Am I missing something?


Edited by Sharkboy 2009-12-14 8:42 AM
2009-12-14 8:57 AM
in reply to: #2492759

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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Excellent post Sharkboy!
I have been thinking the same at beginning while I was setting up the formulas on my Excel log and I noticed that! I think we are both missing something, I don't think there is a mistake Wink
I look forward for JorgeM' answer
2009-12-14 9:27 AM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
It kind of makes sense though.

If you are dropping off that much between 5 and 20 minutes, you would probably drop off more if you were doing a full 1 hour test which is what we are trying to estimate.

My speculation is cyclist B is powerful but lacks the endurance that comes with fitness.

I am anxious to hear Jorge's explanation


2009-12-14 9:31 AM
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Edited by trotpntbll 2009-12-14 9:33 AM


2009-12-14 9:55 AM
in reply to: #2557332

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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
marcag - 2009-12-14 9:27 AM

It kind of makes sense though.

If you are dropping off that much between 5 and 20 minutes, you would probably drop off more if you were doing a full 1 hour test which is what we are trying to estimate.

My speculation is cyclist B is powerful but lacks the endurance that comes with fitness.

I am anxious to hear Jorge's explanation




I'm not sure that adequately explains it. Here's my actual comparison:

Week 2:

20 MP 303 watts x 1200 seconds = 363600
5 MP 333 watts x 300 seconds = 99900
---------------------------------------------------------------
60 MP est. - 900 seconds into 263700 = 293 watts

Week 6:

20 MP 309 watts x 1200 seconds = 370800
5 MP 376 watts x 300 seconds = 112800
---------------------------------------------------------------
60 MP est. - 900 seconds into 258000= 286 watts

I find it hard to believe that I've been training for 6 weeks, pushing myself as required and yet have gotten somewhat less fit. Granted, the numbers are not drastically different, and may be explained by variations in testing conditions or how I might have been feeling at each test time; but, it strikes me as odd that following the training plan that is supposed to increase your fitness for triathlon would result in a lower FTP even though my power test scores both went up.

I also should point out that I typically do longer distance triathlons. I do bike races, too, but I'm notoriously bad at sprinting and doing anything with short bursts of power. I'm much, much better at long consistent paces, so it doesn't strike me as likely that I lack that much fitness for a 20-minute or 60-minute test. Maybe I do, but it just hasn't been my experience.

Edited to add:

trotpntbll, that certainly could be an explanation, but it doesn't jive with my experiences over 5 years in triathlon and 3 years in bike racing. As noted above, I'm a lousy sprinter and an average climber for a "big guy." No doubt I have some power due to my size, but I'm just not explosive. I tend to be much better in longer, evenly paced races, which is what makes this result mystifying to me. I'm wondering if perhaps I blew myself up on my 20-minute test. I haven't looked at the power profile in any depth yet, but I'm betting that I started way, way too high and dropped off a lot at the end. (I try to test without looking at the PT power number, to avoid being influenced by it).


Edited by Sharkboy 2009-12-14 10:04 AM
2009-12-14 12:45 PM
in reply to: #2557386

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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
That's quite an increase in 5 minute power! If you're sure that was a good all-out 20 minute test, then the numbers don't lie. If it was me, I would continue to base my workouts on a CP of about 290 and look for some big increases in the 20 minute power over the next weeks.

Sidenote: On Coggan's power profiling charts there are columns for FTP & 5 minute power, as well as 1 minute and 5 second power. I don't think 5 minute power is what they call 'explosive'.
Edit: rereading your edit section, maybe you should retry the 20 minute test ...

Edited by Micawber 2009-12-14 1:00 PM
2009-12-14 1:20 PM
in reply to: #2558018

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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Micawber - 2009-12-14 12:45 PM

That's quite an increase in 5 minute power! If you're sure that was a good all-out 20 minute test, then the numbers don't lie. If it was me, I would continue to base my workouts on a CP of about 290 and look for some big increases in the 20 minute power over the next weeks.

Sidenote: On Coggan's power profiling charts there are columns for FTP & 5 minute power, as well as 1 minute and 5 second power. I don't think 5 minute power is what they call 'explosive'.
Edit: rereading your edit section, maybe you should retry the 20 minute test ...


I'm thinking you're right about retesting the 20 minute test. I checked the power profile and I had a big drop off at about 10 minutes. My first 4 minutes was extraordinarily high . . . much higher than it should be. I also forgot that when I tested 5 MP yesterday, I was fully rested. When I tested the 20 MP, I had done a short run in the morning . . . nothing to wear me out completely, but it may have been a factor. Also, I'd done some traveling earlier in the week, so perhaps I wasn't as rested as I'd thought. It wouldn't surprise me if I didn't have much (if any) gain in overall estimated 60-minute critical power; I'm just surprised that I lost wattage.
2009-12-14 3:11 PM
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2009-12-14 3:34 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
JorgeM - 2009-12-12 5:29 PM

Ok folks, week #7 is up: http://jorgepbmcoaching.blogspot.com/

We are shifting gears; after completing round no. 2 of testing we now begin focusing on improving our 20 min power. We'll still do some VO2 max sessions this week plus tempo and long ride and in coming weeks will switch more onto our power threshold why should we work in improving our 20 min power? Well I was going to work on a detailed post for my blog but I found this article online which nicely explains the reasoning and science behind it. It also points out why working on what many athletes/coaches refer to 'base' training might be an ineffective way to train especially for those of us with limited training time.

Anyway, also pay attention to the notes and have fun!



Thanks for posting that link Jorge. That article is excellent and explains things that I have been wondering about in very simple and clear terms. Bring it on, 20MP! You're goin' down sucku! (actually up, but that doesn't work nearly as well)!


2009-12-14 9:11 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread

Excellent question Sharky, I will respond tomorrow I promise!

2009-12-15 10:42 AM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
I'm brand new to the training with power concept so this may be a bit of newb question...

I've been reading Allen/Coggan's book "Training and Racing with Power" and they suggest doing the 5 minute and 20 minute power test as part of the same workout. I notice Jorge has them split up. I'm just curious if there is a advantage to doing it one way other other?

For now, I split them up. My first 5' test was not well executed though - I took it way too easy the first 90 seconds. I need to redo it because I know I could have pushed harder from start to finish.
2009-12-16 4:52 AM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
trotpntbll - 2009-12-14 3:11 PM

I'd retest then. Also, why don't you look at your wattage as your test? I find it much easier to prevent the burn out, or to at least delay it if I glance at it at least a few times.


So, the retest went better. After a full night's sleep, no travel, and no running, my 20-minute test resulted in a 20MP of 322 watts. Doing the calculations (5MP of 376 watts) results in a 60-minute critical power of 304 watts.

So, the long and short of it is that I clearly am not as fit endurance-wise as I thought I was before I started the training plan, but it's not so bad that I'm actually losing fitness like my tests appeared to show.

Thanks for the suggestion. I guess this highlights the importance of consistency in ALL aspects of your tests.
2009-12-16 7:11 AM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Sharkboy - 2009-12-16 4:52 AM
trotpntbll - 2009-12-14 3:11 PM I'd retest then. Also, why don't you look at your wattage as your test? I find it much easier to prevent the burn out, or to at least delay it if I glance at it at least a few times.
So, the retest went better. After a full night's sleep, no travel, and no running, my 20-minute test resulted in a 20MP of 322 watts. Doing the calculations (5MP of 376 watts) results in a 60-minute critical power of 304 watts. So, the long and short of it is that I clearly am not as fit endurance-wise as I thought I was before I started the training plan, but it's not so bad that I'm actually losing fitness like my tests appeared to show. Thanks for the suggestion. I guess this highlights the importance of consistency in ALL aspects of your tests.

The tests – why do I choose a 20’ and 5’ tests? The reason behind testing this duration on your power curve on different days is to attempt estimating 2 things: 1) 5’ is closely related to your max aerobic capacity (VO2 max) and 2) the 20’ test while it is a more intense effort of our maximum lactate steady state (MLSS) still it is long enough to give us a pretty good picture about it. Using both we can determine what’s our current fitness potential (ceiling) set up by your 5’ power and also to give us an idea how metabolic fit are we or not. Following the Hunter Allen method (doing both back to back) while it might allow us to estimate functional threshold power it doesnlt give us 2 datat point to set up a) our potential (5MP) and b) how far or not we are from that potential today.

Think if the 5’ test as the ceiling as to how much you can improve your 20MP which ideally setups your limitation, IOW with consistent training you could expect bring your 20MP closer and closer to your 5MP which eventually will plateau as you’ll hit your VO2 max limit. However most of us AGers haven’t done adequate training through years hence we are far from getting close to our potential. In many cases since we are not as fit close to our potential the 5’ test is more representative of our VO2 peak (rather than max) which just means how hard we can push ourselves aerobically though since we are not fit enough yet we are not pushing to the point we are reaching our max aerobic capacity. For that reason it is normal to see improvements in our 5’ min power which is of course good news.

The CP model – I like to use this model because it can rather accurately predict what’s our power close to our MLSS which among other things is defined as the highest steady state exercise level one can maintain while also maintaining an equilibrium between the elimination of blood lactate and the diffusion of lactate into the blood. MLSS is an excellent tool for assessing fitness level, predicting endurance performance, and designing training programs, That said the model has it flaws and it is not perfect; it assumes we can go over long periods of times without fatigue which as we know that is not the case. Also it assumes the max efforts are well executed and 100% representative our current fitness.

As we know any time we are exerting ourselves we fatigue through a series of physiological processes hence when the model is used to predict for efforts over 60 min it begins to lose accuracy. However for efforts up to 60 min it can be rather accurate which is a convenient way to predict an athlete’s 60 min power without actually having them do a full on 60min effort. Still even though the model can provide us a close estimate of our metabolic fitness for a 60 min effort I still suggest testing this at some point to see how close you are to your potential or not.

The other issue with the model is that it assumes an athlete will test under optimal conditions, IOW the data obtained from a test is accurate and 100% representative of our current fitness and as you experienced on your test that is not the case. If you don’t test rested/fueled to provide your very best max effort your result won’t represent accurately your current fitness and the estimates from the model will be off

As you can see with the model if your spread between your 5MP and 20MP is big then the 60 min power estimation tend to be lower; i.e. if your 5MP is 300w and your 20MP is 220w (239w CP60) then this indicates that while your max aerobic capacity is pretty good and you are able to push yourself rather intense up to 5’ your MLSS on the other hand is not as good and you lack the specific fitness hence even though you have the potential to increase your 20 and 60 min power closer to your 5MP, currently your fitness is not there hence your lower number.

OTOH, if your 5MP and 20MP this can mean 2 things: 1) that you haven’t trained enough to maximize your 5MP (your have achieved your peak rather than your max) or 2) you indeed have almost reached your VO2 max power (no more room for growth) and you have done a good job improving your power threshold to the point is near that VO2 max. This is not something common among AGers and we usually have lots of room for improvement.

Always remember to test rested and be ready to provide your very best effort so you can produce a true 5 or 20 max power and 2, remember that the 5MP is your current ceiling for improvement which means you can expect to increase your threshold power close to that *if* you do the training. In your case with a 5MP of 376w it means you have lots of room for improvement to get your 60CP, much higher of the current 304w. Though it is normal to see a big increase in your 5MP because we have been working on that aspect 1st on the 1st 6 weeks of the program. We just moved into maximizing 20MP and then will move to improve 60 min power (aka FTP)

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