swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!! (Page 15)

Interesting about "looking down at the bottom of the pool" - I did that then my swim coach told me NOT to do that. :-) I think it's just more of a tilt up, like at 45 degree angle. Technically you're still sorta looking at the bottom of the pool, but at an angle.

Kicking - I hardly kick either, but I've started to do the 2 beat kick. It seem to work, but it feels like I'm rubbing my head and patting my belly type of thing going on with focusing on the breathing, focusing on the stroke/pull, etc. So I'm ignoring my kicking (I just flick my leg or point my toes. Never kicking or fluttering) for now until I get everything else down pat.

There's a great article on BT about techniques...let me know if you're interested. I have it as a PDF form, and put it on my Nook so I can read it anytime. :-)

• Freestyle is not swam on your stomach, it is swam on your sides. You just happen to roll across your stomach with each stroke. If you think of it this way, and practice it this way, you will have great shoulder roll and long reach, long full pull.


• You do not want to look at the bottom of the pool. Unfortunatly, TI has hammered this into everyone's head, and it is just incorrect. If you have poor swim posture, looking at the bottom of the pool will help to raise your hips, but this is a BAD way to do things. The best way to help your body position is to improve your *swim posture*. I'll create a separate post on this, but the idea is that if you have proper swim posture, your chest will push your upper body into the water, raising your hips. Additionally, with proper swim posture, the waterline will be on your forehead for the least drag. As a swim coach, this is actually a pet peeve of mine, and one of the reasons I don't like the TI program.


• As long as triathletes are kicking any, they are kicking enough, and even then, it's not hugely important for triathlons - your legs are huge users of O2, and the harder you kick, the more O2 you are going to use, the quicker you will get winded. Additionally, people tend to have poor kicking "form" and use kicking to stabilize their body. If you at swimmers from above, you can see their knees so far apart you could put a basketball there. This also comes down to posture.

Swim Posture = Core Strength. If you are swimming correctly, you have very good rotation, you are using your lats/abs/glutes to swim, not your shoulders/arms/quads. Let me put some more together on this...

Suzy and I are short (although I think she's shorter than me just by a couple inches or so). I do feel like I run "faster" than the taller people...but it's not that I'm faster, I just have higher cadence to make up for the distance due to short legs, so I think that's the case with Suzy.

Cadence on the bike - I normally go by feel. Most of the time I keep it above 75-80. I'm not sure how it will translate to "racing" cadence. Probably a little more?

When I hit a little downhill, or downhills, I tend to put it in my biggest gear possible and just pedal. I've hit 30mph with just going cadence of 60, but when I go up on hills, that is way backward....I go perhaps 40-60 cadence, but I'm super slow. Definitely need to work on that!

TJ - That would be awesome if you could try, and post links to videos. I see too many videos that I get thrown off by the whole thing because of the TI.  I am a visual person, so videos is more important to me than words (and not a whole lotta talking...I'm deaf.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the way you swim at a triathlon totally different than trying to swim for a swim team, let say Micheal Phelps? I assume it's a little different to save your legs for B/R.

I *think* I have the right position, but I feel "off" for some reason, and I want to figure it out. I think I'm not reaching as well as I should. Do I need to increase my strength in my arms to get a better "reach"?  I'm just trying to figure out why my speed is still pretty much the same as it was two months...I want to get faster (who doesn't?!), so I think there's something I'm missing. :-)

You're right, I don't!! I like looking slightly forward, partly because I can see where I'm going but also because I feel like it allows me to rotate my shoulders more and get a better reach. I'm interested to see what you have to say on swim posture.... 

Here's a video to watch to start. There may be a short commercial in the beginning, and I should automatically go into discussion of the 7 elements of a perfect freestyle stroke. If I am talking about something else, let me know, and I'll give you the start point for the discussion. More later.

I'd start with TJ's first point above - are you rotating/rolling your body from side to side as you swim? If you're flat on your stomach it's going to limit your reach and the strength of your pull. 

I'll be more than happy to discuss swimming anytime - it's what I do for a living at this point - and I'd like to think I'm pretty good at it. I have some articles on my website: http://www.coachtj.com - and I have some videocasts I have done that discuss different aspects of swimming and triathlons at http://www.multisportweekly.com

I have a great video podcast setup, and I can do a video class with the group - I have about a 30 minute "class" I can do on proper freestyle, and with a video setup, I can somewhat demonstrate what I am talking about. We'd just need to schedule a time. I did this in BT Chat with a group a few weeks ago for Aquagirl and JoshR.

Also, if you have a flip camera, have someone video your stroke the next time you are in the pool (15-30 second swimming away, swimming towards, from the side and above), and let me know - you can upload it to my YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/tjtryon- I have some examples up there already that you can view if you want.

Edited by tjtryon 2010-04-10 9:43 PM

Swim posture and the modern miracle of monkeys

I've been talking about swim posture quite a bit lately. It tends to become the topic (or do I make it the topic?) with my swimmers, in online forums I participate in, and with others in the industry. I feel it is the most important aspect of a good solid freestyle stroke, and probably one of the most neglected portions of stroke development for coaches. We live in a computer society. We are slaves to computers, and computers have given us terrible posture. As a people, we are constantly hunched over a keyboard, and have shortened our chest muscles, while elongating our back muscles. So, how does this apply to swimming? Through the modern miracle of monkeys... Yep, blame it on the monkeys.

If you think about it, the closest thing in nature to humans swimming is a chimpanzee swinging from a vine. Visualize the picture: Shoulders back, chest out front, and the monkey managing his weight and motion above and behind, NOT out on front. As a swimmer, we have nearly the same movement, just in reverse direction, but it still comes from managing our weight and effort from behind and above. We can not do so with poor posture, we must get back to the posture, we as people had when we were kids swinging from the rope in the backyard tree. That was before we learned poor posture.

Do you remember in grade school the teacher or your parents telling you to improve your posture. "Sit up STRAIGHT, young man! Stop SLOUCHING in your seat!” I remember that distinctly from both parents and teachers. To grow up with all our body parts working properly it was necessary to treat our body well by maintaining proper posture and body strength.

Well guess what, posture in the water is just as critical to swimming well. Most swimmers have some GLARING posture defects which cause them to either swim MUCH slower than they are capable or work MUCH harder to swim at the same speed. The main two goals in swimming faster are to minimize or reduce drag and to maximize propulsion. Instead we are using most of our energy overcoming poor posture in the water and we are not achieving either!

What are the characteristics of proper swim posture? Swim posture is probably the issue most overlooked by the majority of "coaches", but is probably one of the most important aspects of a good freestyle stroke. That is a pretty broad statement, but I'll actually explain why below. First, what is good posture? Relating to swimming, it is having your spine in a fairly straight axis, shoulders back (scapula retraction), chest forward (swimming proud), and utilizing your core muscles (lats, abs, glutes) instead of your shoulder/arm muscles.

Why is it important? The main reason it is important is that proper swim posture affects EVERY single part of your stroke and lends to proper body position in the water. If you have your scapula retracted, it will pull your shoulders back and down. To do this, think about tucking your shoulder blades in your back pocket. With your scapula retracted, you will "open up" your chest, loosen your shoulders. This will allow you to have better body roll/shoulder rotation. You need this rotation to get the long reach and long pull. Additionally, this better posture will help you to engage your core muscles, and start to use your lats, abs and glutes. Without this posture, you will not have a good body roll, and you will swim flat. Swimming flat causes people to not get a long reach or a full pull. People who swim flat tend to pull the water with their arm and shoulder muscles, which fatigue much quicker than your core muscles.

YTWL drill (scapula retraction) - You can do this one at home, sitting on the couch. Remember the old YMCA dance? This is similar, only different ;-) You want to make sure your body, shoulders, elbows and hands are on the same plane (think laying on the floor doing this drill). OK, back to the YMCA song - Put your arms up in "Y" - hold it for 5 seconds. Now move them to "T" - you should feel your shoulder blades come together some. Now, keeping your hands at the same level of your shoulder, drop your elbows and create a "W" - make sure your body/shoulders/elbows/hands are still on the same plane - you should feel your shoulderblades come together even more - hold for 5 seconds. Finally, bring your elbows toward your sides, hands straight out to the side - maintaining everything on the same plane again you should really feel the fact your shoulder blades are together more - hold for 5 more seconds. Do this 5 times. This works to lengthen the muscles in your chest and open up the joints in your chest. Practice this a few times a day.

Swimming drills:
Heads Up (Lifeguard Drill): Swim with your head/mouth out of the water, maintain looking directly forward as much as possible. This will only be possible if you have your scapula retracted - which will permit you to roll your body/shoulders. This drill helps you engage your lats while swimming, and work on an even body roll.

Coin in the Crack (glutes drill): Your butt is part of your core, and your glutes have everything to do with posture too. Swim like you have to keep a quarter in your crack. Tighten your glutes. It will help you narrow you kick, and help your body to roll better.

Stretch your core (abs drill): Tighten your abs to the hunky 6 pack they are (or in my case a pony keg), and swim with a night tight core. Swim 100 yards with a tight core, and you will know what the purpose was.

Well, this is a brief discussion, I can get into more detail later. Let me know if you have any questions...

Edited by tjtryon 2010-04-10 10:39 PM

Lots of really great discussion yesterday....I have a few comments and a couple of questions....

Re: Run Cadence.  Rob and DJ are right, my running cadence is slightly over 200 which I think has a lot to do with my height.  I used to overstride and have lower leg soft tissue issues.  Having said that, I plan to work on changing my running gait in the off season. I've always been a heal striker, but believe I will benefit from a slight tweak to more midfoot.  Not easy to do, but I would like to get closer before Boston '11.

Re: Bike cadence.  I do think this is somewhat individual like TJ said.  In my workouts I have high cadence spin work (RPM 110+) to improve form and lower cadence (60-70+) to build some strength and power (which is my weak point despite drumstick size legs!). On hills I tend to go in a lower gear and spin up them....I want to maintain my HR in the appropriate zone and I want legs that can actually run off the bike.  My goal isn't how fast I ride the bike in MPH, it is how fast I finish the whole race.  I learned that last year.  I could have a great bike split (ride in Z4+) and then be totally gassed on the run.  You see a lot of people use that strategy which I think is one of the reasons tri running is so slow.

Re: Swimming.  I am no expert, but I do think there is room for tweaks depending on who you are.  A strict rule of don't look down at the bottom of the pool or look at a X degree angle doesn't make sense to me.  After I was video taped,  I could see the back of my head too far above the water, by looking down it was less evident and created a more streamlined position.  Same for the way I breathe.  Now I lean my head more into the water and breathe in the trough.

Re: TJ's advice on swimming.  TJ I would love for you to provide us some more advice on the pull and catch. I spent the entire off season working on technique...I am now extremely balanced in the water and can swim for a very long time.  The problem is lack of propulsion.  I can't seem to get a good catch and pull despite the references to "over the barrel" etc.  Any ideas to make it sink in?

Re: Twin question on running the HIM, I was wondering the same thing, but when I saw my plan for next week, I knew all I would be getting to do is run the 5k as part of the sprint....., probably smart, but not very satisfying!

Edited by SSMinnow 2010-04-11 6:49 AM

Tony, the races I've done with bottle exchanges have always been regular water bottles or gatorade bottles...never bike bottles.  

Nice job Glen and Suzy on the races yesterday!

Before I respond to any questions or comments, I'll throw in my bio:

Name: Chris

Story: Back for my third round.  It's hard to leave this group.  Great advice in all three areas and even better support - good days and bad.


Family Status: Married 4.5 years, no kids, just a dog (jack russell) and cat (looks like garfield) 

Current Training: Slow early in the season, with my first official race in June.  I have been taking some time away from running due to strange injury that appeared a couple weeks ago.  The bike and swim are going pretty well though.  IM training begins on 4/12.

Past Races: 2008 - XTERRA Uwharrie (not really a race for me.  just a day I tried not to die), 1 sprint (did not train for); 2009 - 1 Olympic, 2 sprints and 1 HIM.

2010 Races: Festival of Flowers Olympic (June), Caine Halter Sprint (June), Tri the Midlands (June), Greenville Sprint (August), Ironman Louisville (August) - All of the races are now a maybe depending on the extent of my knee injury.

Weight Loss: Not a big issue.  Once I get into training, I know I will lose the 8-10 pounds I put on during the winter plus a little more.  I hate to even say this (John, close your ears and don't read this part)- I am giving up beer during my IM training which is supposed to begin tomorrow. 

Since there is another Chris in the group I can also be known as:  jeepguy, golf pro, whatever.

Edited by Jeepguy2358 2010-04-11 7:52 AM

I definitely have

A) The flu
B) Food Poisoning

  No fun!  But, I did do a White trash themed pub run yesterday in downtown Seattle. I will try to post some pictures later!  great time. 

As soon as I read this I thought the same thing.  Pushing 70 cadence is pushing a lot of muscle and my bet is that a run afterwards would have been pretty difficult.  Hopefully Tracy can chime in on this.  She was doing the same thing a couple years back and I asked her to try pushing a HIGHER cadence (Closer to 90ish range). 

Or Alcohol Poisoning?

WOW!! Lots of great swim stuff to wake up to -- LOVE THAT!!!

I like the part about finishing your stroke, Jules. I am good about keeping the pull to the end -- and every now and then I "flick" my thigh with my thumb just to keep me honest. But I don't know if I actually propel it, so I'll think about that next time I'm in the pool.

And thanks for the great info, TJ! I'm going to read it more carefully later. When I was younger, "core" wasn't something that we ever talked about. Oh yes, we did plenty of dry-lands that worked "abs" (as it was back then), but there wasn't talk/technique that engaged the core (or focused on it). I noticed the white board the masters group uses where I swim had some quote about about engaging the pelvis and power coming from the core -- so I try to think about that every now and then when I'm swimming. I like the idea of thinking of swimming on your side and just passing across on your tum with each stroke. Side-kicking drills are good for that, or the drills where you're sculling out front 3-5 times before each stroke -- you can really think about being rotated while you're doing that. 

Finally, as I've mentioned before, I'm a strict 2-beat kicker and believe that many newer swimmers kick waaaaaay too much and just zap themselves because of the huge amounts of energy required to move those big muscles. I always feel like that's one of the first things I suggest to newer swimmers... 

Good morning y'all!

Race report posted here.  Thanks again for all the messages and inspires.  They are really nice to get and much appreciated.

Great discussion in this MG loaded with information in the last 24 hours.  I am going to be reviewing the cadence and swim stuff closely as they are very timely for me. 

I hope everyone is having a great weekend!

highly unlikely - I know what hangovers feel like! I was DD yesterday, so only a few beers.

Headed out for a 40 mile ride and then a 4-6 mile run afterwards, its amazing weather here today, time to take advantage!

I would quailfy last two bullet points. 
I don't look straight down, but rather a little forward from straight down (hope that makes sense).  Looking down at the bottom of the pool will help with form, but don't forget you will be lifting your head to sight.  Need to be comfortable with that.
I also think kicking too much is not a good thing.  I agree with Kyla...two beat kick all the way.  No need to burn your legs early...they need to carry you quite a way once you get out of the water.   

Welcome back Badger! I need all the hockey company I can get! We may have discussed this, but refresh my meory, where did you play Div. 1 hockey? Wisconsin? I went to RPI and hockey is our only division 1 sport. (I did not play for the team) I was racing bikes back then and did race for the school. I got a kick the other night at a training session put on by a local tri shop. The pro  leading the class made a comment about my thighs. I said they come from 30+ years of hockey. She left me alone the rest of the class.

Welllllll - Guess who woke up with a sore throat and tight lungs and decided to not race yesterday? It was cold and windy, and I just didn't want to get sick(er) so I made the decision to skip the 10 mile bike race. Why do they start a 10 mile bike race at 7am, anyway? Jeez it only takes 30 minutes. I definitely would have done it had it been later in the day when it warmed-up. 

My hubby did go ahead and he did really well - placed in the top 20 (or so he says - there are no chip times for the cycle part of Redbud). He got this pretty medal - I'm totally envious and kind have been beating myself up for not going ahead and racing.  

TJ - Thanks for the quarter between the butt cheeks suggestion. I stuck one there before I went swimming this morning, and I think it did help. Although I must say that my butt was really tired by the end of my swim. Ok, I'm joking....I didn't put a quarter between my butt cheeks. I will try imagining I've got one there next time I swim, though. 

DJ - I think that upper body strength helps more on the pull than with the reach. That's what I've read and been told, anyway.


Running question: I immediately go into zone 4 right after I start my run, then up to zone 5 for the better part of the run. This is just wearing me the heck out. I don't do this on the bike, nor is it the case during my swim. What's the dealio? It makes running torture. If it's just a matter of building an aerobic base, how long will this take? I've been running for four months now. I think someone told me that it takes six months before running doesn't suck? 

I'm off to do a brick.





Edited by kickitinok 2010-04-11 12:05 PM