Gray Guys/Girls Masters Focus Triathlete Forum (all levels welcome)--CLOSED (Page 15)

I am confused on dates.  What day was starting weigh in and then which day for next weigh in? Sat 1/4 or Sun 1/5? We are not counting weight loss since the New Year just since first weigh in day? Also which days do I count workouts for.  Sorry to be so slow I just need to now the dates to include in the report.  I am assuming you want 7 days of workouts.... 

Kathy,

I think he posted Sunday through Saturday for the weight and exercise.  If I am wrong I need to recalculate after my workouts d=today.

Sorry, double post.

The Black Dog, resting in the grass on a cool 67 degree day in sunny Southern California!

Thank you all (Steve, Stu) for slacking during the last challenge so the mug could come here!

(IMG_0699.JPG)

Lost 0.8 pounds - 8 pts

No gain - 5 pts

498 minutes training - 16.6 pts

Total - 29.6 pts

Wow!  Seems to me, with the numbers Judi and Tsvi are putting up, we are all playing for third place!!!

A couple days ago when I responded to a post, I said I would write something up about the kick. I think the kick is fairly important, but probably not for the reasons you think.

Before I really get started, I want to clarify something. When I talk about freestyle here in the BT forums, I am speaking about ‘Triathlon Freestyle.’ If we were talking about ‘Swim Meet Freestyle’ my comments often would be different. I believe that ‘Triathlon Freestyle’ and ‘Swim Meet Freestyle,’ while they appear to be the same and indeed have many similarities, are very different. Perhaps the biggest difference is that swim meet freestyle, with the possible exception of the longer events is about speed; that is the ONLY consideration. While triathlon freestyle is a study in efficiency and endurance.

In a swim meet, a swimmer is competing at a high zone 5 effort, well above VO2 max, using glycogen for energy, creating a tremendous amount of lactate, and he/she will only be able to sustain that great an effort for a couple of minutes – if that long. Oh, and when that swim meet swimmer is done, he/she will have a couple hours of recovery time to recharge glycogen stores before the next 1-2 minute effort. A triathlon swimmer on the other hand, will generally be exerting a zone 3, perhaps low zone 4 effort; using oxygen, fat and a small amount of glycogen for energy and will be able to sustain the effort for a very long period of time. When the triathlon swimmer is done swimming, he/she gets to hop on a bike and ride – maybe upwards of 6-8 hours depending upon the race distance and then will run a LONG ways. NO RECOVERY allowed! It is important to appreciate that distinction as we talk about the kick.

The first thing you need to understand is that you are not looking to get much, if ANY propulsion from your kick.

Even the most elite freestyle swimmers get less than 10% of their forward propulsion from their kick efforts; and that is at what can be considered a sprint distance (100M, 200M). In a triathlon, even at the sprint triathlon distance, you are swimming a considerably longer distance.

In case I wasn’t clear enough - the VAST majority of triathletes gain next to NO propulsion from their leg kick. Accept it and move past it!

Let’s look past the fact that most swimmers get very little propulsion from their kick and examine why it simply is not practical or realistic to attempt to sustain a high kick effort. Remember earlier I talked about the swim meet freestyle swimmer’s exertion level up in zone 5, while the triathlon freestyler’s effort was zone 3-4? The triathlete is conserving energy. Consider what happens however if you decide you want to have a VERY strong kick. You up your kick to an 8-12 beat kick, you look like a little speed boat going across the water. You increase your pace by, let’s be REALLY generous, maybe 1.0 seconds/100 yards. Let’s see, that works out to saving 7.5 seconds in a sprint triathlon, or 42 seconds in a full ironman distance. Unfortunately, your increased kick effort has raised your heart rate and put you into high zone 4 or zone 5 and you will have burned up a great deal of the glycogen stored in your legs. As you know, glycogen is a local energy source, it is stored in the muscle that is using it. You can’t replace glycogen while you are exercising so when it’s gone – it’s gone! You will soon get out of the water, still have over 98% of your race remaining, and already be at a serious energy deficit in your legs.

The vast majority of triathletes gain next to NO propulsion from their leg kick. Accept it and move past it!

So if my kick isn’t to help me move forward, what is it for?

• Your kick should help drive body rotation, not HINDER it
• A good kick will help to achieve proper body position by lifting your legs up - thereby increasing pace
• A good kick creates proper balance in the water
• A good kick will help eliminate drag
• Your kick should be EXTREMELY low effort so it minimizes energy expenditure

Most triathletes I have worked with have poor, ineffective kick technique. Working to improve your kick technique will help to increase your speed and lower your swim splits by reducing your drag through the water and improving your overall stoke efficiency.

Most swimmers kick with the proper timing naturally. The key element of good timing is that as your hand enters the water at the beginning of the stroke, the opposite leg kicks. I believe there is entirely too much focus on the speed of the kick – 2, 4, or 6 beat kicking. If you accept the premise that there is very little propulsion to be gained from the kick, then the rate of the kick becomes irrelevant. Kick at the rate that is most comfortable and natural.

Focus on pointing your toes and kicking from the hip. Those are the aspects of the kick that are most likely to be holding you back.

Hope that helps. I go into more detail on my website if you are interested.

Just my humble two cents.

Hi James,

Good questions.

My opinion of masters swimming is that it is good news/bad news.  Assuming a coach that half way knows what he/she is doing (from a technique standpoint), the good news is that the novice swimmer will get good technique instruction and will get a decent introduction to swim training.  For someone who is not self-motivating, a masters program will help achieve somewhat consistent training.  The bad news is that most masters programs are geared towards training for a swim meet, not a triathlon (those of you that are with a masters program specifically training for a triathlon, you are the exception, not the rule).

With masters programs, you typically see a lot of kickboard, pull buoy, and swim fin work/drills.  To put that in perspective, back when I was swimming, we were putting in over 350,000 meters/month and I don't recall that we ever did more than 500 meters of that on a kickboard.  We NEVER EVER, not once, used fins.  We used pull buoys during the couple weeks of technique focus at the beginning of each season.  The belief back then was that if you want to swim fast, you swim lots and lots of laps, and when you got done, you swim some more.  Have training techniques changed in the time since I hung up my swimming speedo?  Undoubtedly, however nobody has EVER been able to counter my arguments.  I hear that kicking on a kickboard builds muscle and increases flexibility.  While that may be true, you can do the same thing, more rapidly, with targeted training in the gym.  Using a kickboard, in my opinion, can create more problems than it solves.  So much of freestyle is timing, and the timing of the kick is crucial to proper body roll. Using a kickboard does NOT help to develop timing or body roll. In fact, it can help to develop bad habits as the kickboard promotes NO body roll.

As to swim fins, artificially increasing your speed through the water with fins alters the catch – a very important aspect of the stroke. Additionally, the artificially increased speed alters the pull and push, again altering important aspects of the stroke. Never mind the argument that fins increase ankle strength and flexibility, as I already said, you can do the same thing in the gym.

Pull buoys and swim paddles have their place, however they are overused by most programs and often are used for the wrong thing.  I hear about how they increase strength.  Perhaps, but you can do the same thing, much more effectively, in the gym.  The greatest value of paddles is they force proper technique, but most coaches/athletes don't use them that way.

Sadly, I think that too many swim coaches today rely on kickboards, swim fins, pull buoys, and drills in place of good technique instruction.  Either they don't know how, they do what they 'have always heard,' or they really don't care.  On top of that, many swim coaches today do NOT fully understand the needs of a triathlete and specifically the differences between swim meet freestyle and triathlon freestyle (see my post of a couple hours ago on the kick).  Or, if they do understand the triathlete's needs, they do not have the time or inclination to properly coach them.

So, while a masters program is better than nothing, I am a fan of getting the 'biggest bang for my buck.'  With that in mind, either a) finding/joining a team specifically geared towards triathlon, coached by someone who FULLY understands the needs of a triathlete, and whose workouts are specifically geared towards triathlon; or b) finding someone that can meet with you on a regular basis to coach stroke technique and make sure your technique is correct, and then create your own workouts.

Plan 'B' is the way I conduct my swim training. 

In your case specifically, as I have said repeatedly, it is VERY, VERY important that your technique is correct!  As a relatively new swimmer, you need someone on deck frequently enough to make sure your swimming with proper technique.  Ideally, that person will be there occasionally near the end of a workout to see your technique when you are fatigued.  How frequently does that need to be?  I don't know where your technique is at today so that is a bit difficult to answer.  Certainly 2-3 times a month, maybe weekly?  That is a question for the coach on deck.

As to your actual workouts (this is exactly what I told Melanie a couple weeks ago), you should start with several weeks of “Extensive Endurance Training,” by which I mean sets of repetitions that, in total, are longer than your planned swim race distance at a steady, comfortable pace with 1:00 rest between intervals. You want the rest period to be sufficiently long that your HR can return to what I term the “base heart rate.” You can determine your base heart rate by taking your pulse at the end of an EASY warm-up. Over time, you will notice your HR returning to the base rate much more rapidly, an indication that your endurance is improving. Most HR monitors don’t work underwater so learning to take your carotid pulse is a handy skill to have. In this phase, switch things up, maybe alternate between [200 easy warm-up, then 10 x 200 with 1:00 rest, followed by 200 cool-down – 2,400 total yards], and then next time maybe [200 easy warm-up, then 10 x 100 with 1:00 rest, followed by easy 200 swim, followed by another 10 x 100 with 1:00 rest, then 200 easy cool-down – 2,600 total yards]. If need be, as you start out you can shorten to less repetitions and add repetitions back in as your fitness improves. During this phase, the primary focus is building endurance and stroke technique. Note there is not a repetition time, rather a rest time. If you fatigue to the point that your technique begins to break down, take a longer rest period. If that does not restore your technique, get out of the water, go home, and try again tomorrow.

I am working on a new article for my blog in which I talk about endurance swim training.  I should have that done in the next week or so and that may help you formulate workouts beyond the next few weeks.

The short answer to your questions is, I think you may be able to do better than masters programs, although masters programs are better than nothing; and if you are self motivating, I think you probably can get a bigger bang for your buck by forming an intelligent training plan on your own.

Hope that answers the questions.  Just my humble two cents.

James,

Maybe if you chat with the coach, you can go off on your own and do your own thing - meaning working on the things YOU need to work on, not what a swim team needs to work on.  Then you would kind of have the best of both worlds - your friends, and technique input, while you are able to get the endurance work you need.

Just a thought.

I hate when that happens!

So sorry.  Thoughts and prayers with you and your family.