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Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread (Page 165)
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 2010-07-01 4:21 AM in reply to: #2337428 |
Master  1853     syracuse |  Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official ThreadI think the EN piece is an excellent one.
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| 2010-07-01 6:44 AM in reply to: #2337428 |
Master 2621 Mechanicsburg, PA | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread Mike one thing you talk about was nutrition. I was surprised how my long bike nutrition plan has changed. I am the type that pretty much has a open menu, but for what ever it’s worth my choice was Hammer Perpetuem. Two long rides I have had some difficulty with it. This brings up a point of testing in training from year to year. Do not always assume your nutrition is going to be the same. You may even fine a new secret nutrition weapon. |
| 2010-07-01 7:21 AM in reply to: #2955017 |
Master 2468 Muskego, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread cusetri - 2010-07-01 7:21 PM I think the EN piece is an excellent one. Sure, you can underfeed and overfeed too, but if you have been banging out 6 hour rides, stopping for no one and nothing, peeing yourself, carrying all nutrition on board, coming home absolutely shelled, and you have had to make negotiations with God to get through the final 1 hour of those rides, I think what you ate on those rides is gonna work.
Gonna have to disagree with you here. I train like I race all the time. I did everything on race day just as I had on training days leading up to the race. I paced just like I trained and was having a great day. However, later that day my body decided to release my nutrition early, by about 20 miles. Even though I felt great and could run just fine I spent the rest of the day running from potty to potty. Still had fun but there was a lot of time on the clock that I wasn't counting on. In retrospect, I guess you really can't know what your body is going to do with your nutrition unless you've done the distance with the nutrition. It seems that there was a point where my body decided that it had had enough gu for the day. I don't see this as an excuse, it's a fact that my nutrition worked in training but did not work on race day. |
| 2010-07-01 7:44 AM in reply to: #2337428 |
Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread One of my ZOOT team mates is coached by EN. I think Rich Strauss sell's a good product and procedure for good athletes with limited amount of training time, thus his focus on the run vs. the long bike in training. It can work great as do other apporaches. I agree with his comment about nutrition in training and how your long bike efforts should feel in that regards, although they don't perscribe long rides so I find that curious. |
| 2010-07-01 8:01 AM in reply to: #2954509 |
Regular 117 Gettysburg, PA | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread bryancd - 2010-06-30 7:52 PM Say, where have you PA boys been hiding this guy? http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/training/index-weekly.... I just cruised his logs and he's very much in contention for a Kona slot possibly. Has he posted in here? I see he's friends with Fred and James. Haha. Not hiding anywhere. Just don't post much. Thanks for the vote of confidence. Don't know if you should be putting money on an IM rookie getting a Kona slot at Lake Placid though. |
| 2010-07-01 8:04 AM in reply to: #2337428 |
Master 2468 Muskego, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread Love this part at the end of the EN article, "At the Line, just suck it up and get 'er done. " |
| 2010-07-01 8:14 AM in reply to: #2954613 |
Regular 117 Gettysburg, PA | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread tasr - 2010-06-30 8:48 PM Skippy74 - 2010-06-30 8:45 PM tasr - 2010-06-30 8:37 PM Bob threw down a killer 1/2 marathon. Brutal conditions and very hilly http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=199603 He threw down a good HIM in the beginning of May also (Kinetic)---tough conditions that day---hot, WINDY! and he had been sick a week prior to the race apparently......I'm thinking he can have a GREAT race at IMLP! Skippy, most certainly. Wow! Lots of love for me last night. I had no idea I was being watched. I had a good June, didn't miss a workout. Really hoping for a good race. It will all come down to pacing and nutrition for me. As a slower swimmer and a better biker/runner, I'm *hoping* to see most of you guys on the course. I'll give you a nice slap on the a$$ as I run by. Lots of talented guys/gals from BT at IMLP this year. Should be fun. Edited by rscheung 2010-07-01 8:26 AM |
 2010-07-01 8:26 AM in reply to: #2955017 |
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| 2010-07-01 8:35 AM in reply to: #2337428 |
| Extreme Veteran 543 South Orange | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread just wondering if anyone else is starting to question if they can bag this elephant? I have the past few days. |
| 2010-07-01 8:57 AM in reply to: #2337428 |
| Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread Re: the En article - 1st of all anything suggested there isn't new, it feels sort of like TI calling certain drills in their own way and marketing it as their revolutionary method though when that is not the case Regardless, their approach is catered to the athlete with limited time hence they favor intensity over volume but as I always like to point out, that is not or shouldn't be an either or approach. It should be what athletes can managed to do/handle given their needs, time constraints, etc. Bryan posted on ST how he spends a lot of his long rides at race pace while EN favors more shorter more intense rides. I think that right there proves how you can be successful in different ways but it has to be athlete specific. The approach is sound because is common sense to anyone who has raced IM but I also think their one size fits all approach force them to take a too conservative approach because of the niche of athletes they are coaching (time limited athletes). Someone like Bryan IMO would suffer from such conservative approach because he not only focused on once side of the equation, on the contrary, he does volume and intensity in some degree/variation through his training. Because of that he is not only winning races but he can afford to push the envelope a bit more because he is very confident of his fitness under race conditions, IOW he is not caught by surprise during a race, he knows how it 'feels' pushing when he needs to push during a race (BD, correct me if my perception of your training is incorrect) Because of the time limitations in their approach for most of their athletes, they ignore swim training to certain degree, they place great emphasis on bike pacing (IMO due to their lack in ability for sustainable power = lack of muscle fatigue resistance training) and of course sharply preach how it is all about the run. Of course it is about the run, but also, they have to advice IM pacing in the way they do based on the way they coach ALL their athletes. Since most IM participants usually are under trained to tackle the race, their pacing approach works because it saves the from cooking their legs. Still, for athletes who have taken care of both sides of the training load equation; I would say their approach might hold some athletes a bit too much back and something I wouldn't do to none of our Pros/elite AGers but that is of course, though I might consider a most conservative plan for beginners or less trained athletes. Anyway, that's just my opinion. |
| 2010-07-01 9:12 AM in reply to: #2955017 |
| Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread cusetri - 2010-07-01 4:21 AM I think the EN piece is an excellent one.
While nutrition can and is often used as an excused to mask poor pacing strategies or lack of fitness; I also think nutrition can be the one variable it can make or break your race. You can have your fueling plan nailed down to the gram of carbs but if you haven't practiced it all thoroughly on training through different circumstances it can very well cost you on race day. i.e. you might be used to training on 70s weather and have your fueling plan, but on race day it turns to be 85 and humid and you do not adjust your carb intake and just drink more water. Since your body will be working a tad harder to keep you cool it might need a bit less carbs and just more fluids (water), if you don't adjust, those extra carbs won't be able to processed and absorb in your gut as usual and it might cause GI, stomach cramps, side stitches, etc. Simon Lessing who once said in an interview how he always had trouble at Kona because he couldn't figure out his nutrition hence his pacing always hurt him. His nutrition would work for any race but there, (didn't he has the IM course record for LP?) I think one of the most accomplished Triathletes in history and winner at different distance would know a thing or two about pacing, yet the one thing which apparently hurt him was his inability to nail his nutrition... |
| 2010-07-01 9:33 AM in reply to: #2337428 |
| Master 1471 Dunedin | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread As an IM newbie with a VERY weak bike background I appreciate the run focus from EN. I like someone's previous comment about checking your ego before the race. Back in April I was wigging out about what I wanted my goal pace for each leg of the race to be. The EN approach helps a newcomer put things in perspective a little better. It's easy to get caught up in the whole IM as one race, but it's really three races linked together. I just so happens that those first two can have a profound impact on the last one. BUT, people might not "get" that unless someone, for example a writer for EN, explicitly says that. New people are soaking up knowledge everywhere they can and if EN says "prep for your run by focusing on your bike execution" then we might be better off. |
| 2010-07-01 9:51 AM in reply to: #2955429 |
| Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread Jorge's comments above are spot on as usual. EN is a bit like TI, it's a very specific training protocol that can be very effective for some athletes, especially those with limited time. His description of their protocol is exactly as it was described to me by by team mate on the ZOOT team Matt Ancona who won the 25-29 AG at IMWI last year. In regards to nutrition, I also agree that nutrition can be screwed up usually when an athlete consumes too much and shut their GI down, which can also be caused by improper pacing. |
| 2010-07-01 10:03 AM in reply to: #2955017 |
| Master 1989 New Jersey | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread Yes, "CHECK YOUR EGO!!!" - before and during the race. Don't know how many people I saw sprinting past me on the first loop of the bike. You gotta let them go. One guy in particular - would pass me on every hill - standing on the pedals as I sat and spun slowly. He was in my age-group so i was tempted not to let him pass, but I did, and at the top of each hill, I'd pass him right back. After the race, I checked his result...DNF!!!! I checked my ego...he didn't. |
| 2010-07-01 11:06 AM in reply to: #2337428 |
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| 2010-07-01 11:40 AM in reply to: #2955879 |
| Master 2621 Mechanicsburg, PA | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread PennState - 2010-07-01 12:06 PM Personally I don't really follow the people I pass or those that pass me on the course. Doesn't make a difference to my race execution. If they are passing me, especially on the bike they are either: 1. Much faster than me and will be finishing ahead of me regardless. 2. They are not pacing well and I will pass them later. Either way I'm fine with it. You passed me last year. You’ll most certainly pass me again. Doesn’t mean I am pacing poorly just doing my race. Your just a very solid triathlete. I don't necessarily fine nutrition as a excuse. If I fail to take in nutrition for a period of time I fail at my nutrition plan and it will come back to haunt me. Murphy law. |
| 2010-07-01 11:45 AM in reply to: #2955340 |
| Master 2621 Mechanicsburg, PA | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread scottgreenstone - 2010-07-01 9:35 AM just wondering if anyone else is starting to question if they can bag this elephant? I have the past few days. Just grab the bull by the horns.  |
| 2010-07-01 11:50 AM in reply to: #2955305 |
| Master 2621 Mechanicsburg, PA | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread PennState - 2010-07-01 9:26 AM I am in the camp that many times nutrition excuses are just that, EXCUSES. Not always, but a lot of time they are pacing and fitness issues. *I* think it takes incredible fitness to push the course for 10-17 hours and not fall apart.' My first IM I pushed and fell apart at mile 16 of the marathon. Mistakes? I ran the 1st half of the marathon too fast (1:45) My 2nd IM I was under-trained for the run and fell apart at mile 13 on the run. There were actually fewer paing issues except I took in too much liquid on the bike. No puking, just sloshing feeling in the belly. Mike, the ONE thing I disagree with is your expected bike pace. YOU are a VERY strong cyclist and will be in the 5:20-5:30 range imho. I don't see you doing 5:50. Again, just my opinion. Lastly I asked Bryan for his thoughts on the EN theory and welcome more of his comments. Here is my biggest beef with the EN concept: After swimming for 1-2 hours and then cycling for 5-8 hours, WE are ALL going to feel a bit floored. This will be the case even if you take it really easy. Yes, maybe less-so than if you go too fast on the bike, but my point is the run is effin' HARD no matter which way you approach it. My run last year was the most awful physical thing I have ever done in an athletic context. I don't think it would have been a lot easier if I had biked 'super-easy'. In my opinion I ran like crap last year, but the funny thing is if you look up run times I actually had a good one compared to the other athletes. It just shows how much trouble most people get into on the run at ironman! Lastly, the IM virgins racing LP his year will ultimately gain even more respect for what Bryan did on the run at his 3 ironmans. It is incredibly hard to run well at this distance! That's all I have got  Once again well said and I agree.
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| 2010-07-01 12:16 PM in reply to: #2337428 |
| Extreme Veteran 398 Sea Isle City, NJ | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread I am going up on a solo mission next week. Drive up Thurs (7/8) and try to get an afternoon swim/run in. 2 Loops and a brick run on Friday and maybe another swim Saturday morning before I leave and head back home. If anyone is going to be up there let me know. If anyone is looking to ride on Friday I welcome the company. 3 weeks from today is check in day!! As far as the racing/training discussion, my humble opinion is that I never have done a full IM during training, so it is really hard to say that you are training like you race and vice versa. As Fred said, until you hit that second half of the marathon all bets are off. You never reach that point in training...or at least I don't. I try to simultate my race, but never to that extent and in this race, that is a big factor. Again, this is just my opinion and I am no expert. Is anyone else really getting amped up?? The calendar has turned over baby and July is here!! |
| 2010-07-01 1:34 PM in reply to: #2954261 |
| Extreme Veteran 596 Worcester, MA | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread PennState - 2010-06-30 4:34 PM AdCo - 2010-06-30 2:42 PM I'm going to argue that you aren't 'over-trained'. By all means take a rest day if you need to. I am today. You are fatigued, but 'over-trained' refers to something a little different.Dream Chaser - 2010-06-30 1:09 PM I am shot. Anyone else feeling 'out of it'? Like, I keep forgetting where I put stuff. Losing track of time and days. Things I did last week, my wife kindly informs me I just did yesterday. Good times! Yes, you are over-trained.. or at least riding that hairyedge.. are you sleeping like crap? I had my last HUGE weekend- Hey, I'm just trying to finish reasonably - and I was like this yesterday.. LONG ride sat, LONG HOT run Sunday, swim Monday. I slept like crap, couldn't think straight, overslept, couldn't focus. Called the coach - I promised the wife I would tell him. Gave me a day off, said don't do housework, cook dinner, sit on couch - "other activities that are fun," but relax. Last night, early to bed, good meal, and slept better. I feel energized. Unless you are elite of going for a Kona spot (you might be) chances are you will benefit more from a rest day than pushing through. MOST of the work is in the bank now, and at least I am better off backing off a bit than pushing through and being sick or more miserable. Anyway, those are some classic over-training symptoms, so take it easy for a day or two. I may have overstated it.. over-trained, not necessarily, but, needing rest, I would agree. For ME, being fatigued can drop to over-trained, very quickly, but I am also at the end of my current fitness level, this is my 1st IM and I jumped quickly, so someone who has been doing this longer can probably hold on better. |
| 2010-07-01 1:44 PM in reply to: #2955148 |
| Regular 117 Gettysburg, PA | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread papson14 - 2010-07-01 8:21 AM cusetri - 2010-07-01 7:21 PM I think the EN piece is an excellent one. Sure, you can underfeed and overfeed too, but if you have been banging out 6 hour rides, stopping for no one and nothing, peeing yourself, carrying all nutrition on board, coming home absolutely shelled, and you have had to make negotiations with God to get through the final 1 hour of those rides, I think what you ate on those rides is gonna work.
Gonna have to disagree with you here. I train like I race all the time. I did everything on race day just as I had on training days leading up to the race. I paced just like I trained and was having a great day. However, later that day my body decided to release my nutrition early, by about 20 miles. Even though I felt great and could run just fine I spent the rest of the day running from potty to potty. Still had fun but there was a lot of time on the clock that I wasn't counting on. In retrospect, I guess you really can't know what your body is going to do with your nutrition unless you've done the distance with the nutrition. It seems that there was a point where my body decided that it had had enough gu for the day. I don't see this as an excuse, it's a fact that my nutrition worked in training but did not work on race day. Really? You train like you race ALL of the time? I find that hard to believe. I train like I race SOME of the time. Some of the time I train much harder. Some of the time I train much easier. Not trying to argue with you, I'm just wondering if this is really true. You never add intensity to long rides? or long runs? You never carry extra bottles with you on training rides so you don't have to stop? Is this true for IM distance only? If I trained like I race the HIM distance, I'd be shelled after every workout. Again, not trying to argue. I just hear this "always train like you race" thing thrown out there so often and I definately don't do this, nor do I agree with it.
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| 2010-07-01 2:07 PM in reply to: #2337428 |
| Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread Just read the last few pages and it's CLEAR: Ironman Lake Placid is pretty much dominating our lives right now -- the training, this message board, dreams, daily nutrition/fatigue, we are all pretty much fully obsessed and absorbed with this single event we signed up for a year ago . . . Now here's the Question: What tha f_ck do we do after July 26th? How bad is the post Race depression? |
| 2010-07-01 2:24 PM in reply to: #2956467 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2010-07-01 2:28 PM in reply to: #2337428 |
| Master 1471 Dunedin | Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread I'm sure post-IM is like post-wedding... all that effort for ONE freaking helluva day! I intend to drink. =) I've been getting blizted on one beer and it is so not cool in my circle of friend. =p I plan on training to make it through 2 beers without falling asleep. |
| 2010-07-01 2:32 PM in reply to: #2956524 |
| Subject: RE: Ironman USA Lake Placid : Official Thread WittyCityGirl - 2010-07-01 3:28 PM I'm sure post-IM is like post-wedding... all that effort for ONE freaking helluva day! I intend to drink. =) I've been getting blizted on one beer and it is so not cool in my circle of friend. =p I plan on training to make it through 2 beers without falling asleep. 'Post-wedding' ... that's funny. You're right -- all this time and planning, for what: 1 freaking day! And it can and probably will Rain. Go figure. |
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