Do you believe? (Page 2)

It has it's place...  Just like any "group".  It offers fellowship and a community of people with similar beliefs and for some a sense of belonging. 

...in life after love.

That's true....and it can also be said,  at least for one religion, that it provided a shelter and cover for the nearly systematic sexual abuse of children by it's leaders......I'm just saying.

Yes.  It's disgusting and unspeakable.  But I'm not going to judge all other religions, and all your average followers, based on that.

It would be similar to saying universities/colleges are a "crock" because Penn state had an abuser and provided shelter and cover.  They are positive for most people, but at the same time.  Not for everyone - you can be just as successful/good person without college/university. 

very well-stated.

i hate church.

i'm undecided about god.  he must be there...but to what purpose?

I am an agnostic. My intellect tells me that there is not a God in the sense that so many organized religions speak of, but my intellect also cannot explain how a bunch of chemicals and atoms that comprise a human being can feel things like emotion, nor can it explain what the point of all this is. I just don't know and I never will. So I'll probably always be agnostic.

That said, a few months back I was looking to be a part of something larger than myself, part of a spiritual community that might allow me to explore these sorts of questions. And looking for my kids, as my X has them attending one of those right-wing evangelical megachurches. I ended up joining a UU congregation, and so far, it's been great. Accepting, open-minded, passionate, active people. Check your dogma at the door.

The following is what I've noted from all that I've experienced while growing up and having to attend for one reason or another:
Organized places of Christian worship = mostly hypocrits.

I can live without it.

Yeah, that's my point. 

I realize that my example shouldn't indict the entire culture of religion, but there are many more examples of "disgusting and unspeakable" behind the wall of "religion".  The example I used is just the easiest to recognize.

Surely you watched "Amish Mafia".

I don't care who goes to church and who doesn't.....I think organized religion is a crock.

I'm a pretty strong Christian and go to a large non-denominational Bible teaching church, yet it's hard for me to disagree with the bolded statement.  It's pretty sad, but unfortunately rings true.

I guess my whole point was to separate "religion" or "church" from "belief". The question in the OP was one of belief, not religion or church.

I've always had to chuckle about "born again" Christians who, on the one hand, tell me that a relationship with God and Jesus is a personal relationship, and then in the next breath start telling me exactly how that personal relationship should work...

As usual, happy to be Catholic.

Carry on.  

I can see where people get that impression.  I'm assuming you are talking about the "do good works", "be good to fellow humans" and all that, then they go out and are total D-Bags?  And "mostly" they are?  In general, I think people are good.  In my day to day dealing, almost EVERYONE is good and I rarely run into D-bags I could call hypocrites (if I should know if they go to church or not).

Maybe they go to learn how they SHOULD live.  But can anyone be perfect?  Are they hypocrites for getting reminders of how they should live, but fail to do it?  Just asking the question.

Maybe it's like when we go to the doctor/dentist.  We all go in, learn how we SHOULD eat and live and take care of ourselves.  Maybe plan to do that and try.  But then fall back to the pizza and beer and not flossing twice a day.  Are we "hypocrites"?  Or do we just fail at doing what we were told/taught?  Yet, we go back to the doctor/dentist again and again and promise to try to live up to their suggestions/goals/rules - and probably fail again.

That's pretty well stated.  I agree that people are overwhelmingly good. 

As for your last paragraph.....it's the "teachers" and "leaders" I have a problem with.

I believe in flip turns, but I don't do them. What does that say about me?

Blame Jesus for setting the standard.

He chose a lumbering dull witted fisherman who denied him three times as the first Pope.

It's a lesson that we who are broken can find our true selves
by following Jesus. Myself, I'm still a work in progress.  

That you probably also pee in the pool, don't shower before getting in, and your seat's too high.  Did that cover everything? 

I believe a BT'er with only 241 posts, asking THIS question, and calling us "cohorts" is a troll.

In addition to believing in God, I believe this too. 

I think a lot of the hypocrisy claims come from the inherent attitude of judgement within a church. Now of course everyone has their experience and their own bias on the issue, but in my experience it was the old do what I say not what I do and as soon as one stepped out of the accepted line the hammer was lowered swiftly.

Not even just the leadership, there is a lot of it among the congregation as well. Sure there are a lot of attendees that go because they are "supposed to go", but the more involved you get the more judgement there seems to be. 

I had my fill halfway thru college. 

Aside from my problems with current church practices and even the content of the Bible. 

While not a believer in any specific org. religion, I'm not comfortable labeling myself as an atheist.  Both are flawed in my opinion.  An atheist can no more prove the non-existence of a god or gods, than an organized religion can prove the existence of a god or gods.

I do believe in an after-life...just not one that's been written about by others.  I would never dream of proclaiming my belief is right for anybody else...and it would be nice if org. religions did the same...but that doesn't exactly drum up #'s/followers/$$$'s.  

ChineseDemocracy - I would never dream of proclaiming my belief is right for anybody else...and it would be nice if org. religions did the same...but that doesn't exactly drum up #'s/followers/$$$'s.  

Why would anyone believe something if it's not right?

If you do truly believe that God does not exist,
then if you love me you ought to be convincing me of that,
even if that way is to be charitable, kind, and have a sense of humor about it.

Think about it.

If you love someone, and by that I mean will the good for them for their own end,
and you think they're living a life built on a fantasy,
don't you have some moral obligation to address that with them?