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2012-05-31 2:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?

 

Agree that I doubt there is a lot of "outrage" over the picture. Sounded to me like the article was trying to drum up drama, it didn't point to any protests or breastfeeding women having stones thrown at them.

However I do see this particular picture as a pretty cheap publicity stunt that is in poor taste. I have read enough regs on uniform to know that purposefully posing in uniform like that is against the spirit if not the exact letter of the rules.

I think a lot of things (like breastfeeding in public) wouldn't be such a big deal if people who were for it would just shut up about it. Do we really need an awareness campaign for breastfeeding? I assume it has been going on for a few centuries. Why throw up a picture like this other than to stir the pot?



2012-05-31 2:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?
ChrisM - 2012-05-31 2:15 PM

Yes I am outraged (warning: sexist sentence to follow) that those darn kids are in the way

I was gonna post that!

2012-05-31 2:37 PM
in reply to: #4237418

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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?
Considering you're not allowed to wear the working uniform except for "short stops for gas and quick shopping" to and from work. 

I know that was the rule in the Marine Corps, but I'm not sure if it applies in the Air Force (which is what these two ladies are from).  I see Air Force and Army traveling in cammies all the time.  So, I don't know if they are required to only wear cammies when necessary.

As for the picture, I don't really understand why so many troops see it necessary to pose in their uniform doing things that they do with a clear intent of riling people up.  I was at Arlington National Cemetery yesterday to visit some friends' graves and the thought popped into my head that these guys/gals all chose to stand on the line and serve (ok, so some were drafted, but they could've gone to jail instead). And it seems like some service members are choosing to use the uniform of the US Military as a prop while they make their social statements. 

Regardless of where you are on different positions, using a uniform that is supposed to remove the individuality and make you blend in as a part of the Service is wrong.  The Military isn't there for your personal beliefs, it's there to support and defend the Constitution of the United States and obey the orders of the officers appointed over us and the orders of the President of the United States.  If someone in uniform doesn't like that, they should keep it to themselves, or resign, or face the consequences of violating the UCMJ.

Off soapbox...

2012-05-31 2:50 PM
in reply to: #4237657

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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?
GomesBolt - 2012-05-31 3:37 PM

Considering you're not allowed to wear the working uniform except for "short stops for gas and quick shopping" to and from work. 

I know that was the rule in the Marine Corps, but I'm not sure if it applies in the Air Force (which is what these two ladies are from).  I see Air Force and Army traveling in cammies all the time.  So, I don't know if they are required to only wear cammies when necessary.

As for the picture, I don't really understand why so many troops see it necessary to pose in their uniform doing things that they do with a clear intent of riling people up.  I was at Arlington National Cemetery yesterday to visit some friends' graves and the thought popped into my head that these guys/gals all chose to stand on the line and serve (ok, so some were drafted, but they could've gone to jail instead). And it seems like some service members are choosing to use the uniform of the US Military as a prop while they make their social statements. 

Regardless of where you are on different positions, using a uniform that is supposed to remove the individuality and make you blend in as a part of the Service is wrong.  The Military isn't there for your personal beliefs, it's there to support and defend the Constitution of the United States and obey the orders of the officers appointed over us and the orders of the President of the United States.  If someone in uniform doesn't like that, they should keep it to themselves, or resign, or face the consequences of violating the UCMJ.

Off soapbox...



Yeah, it's the same in the Army.

I honestly equate this to the people in BDUs in the Million Man March (yes, I saw that), the Promise Keepers (saw that too), and other demonstrations. I hope each person in uniform for each of those rallies was at least given a company grade letter of reprimand if not an outright Article 15. Just like I hope these two women are given the same.

2012-05-31 2:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?
What I have gathered is that the uniform does indeed an a bit of controversy to the issue but is there an "issue" to begin with? Does anyone know anyone that thinks breast feeding in public is actually an issue? (not talking about uniforms here, just a mom out for a stroll or doing some shopping)  I am wondering if the "issue" of public breast feeding was stirred up by the media.  Did they poke the hornets nest, or is it a real "issue"?
2012-05-31 3:10 PM
in reply to: #4237702

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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?

Muskrat37 - 2012-05-31 3:57 PM What I have gathered is that the uniform does indeed an a bit of controversy to the issue but is there an "issue" to begin with? Does anyone know anyone that thinks breast feeding in public is actually an issue? (not talking about uniforms here, just a mom out for a stroll or doing some shopping)  I am wondering if the "issue" of public breast feeding was stirred up by the media.  Did they poke the hornets nest, or is it a real "issue"?

No, I don't think that's an issue. They should be allowed to do it where they need to do so. 

If you change their uniforms to civvies, the comparison of that picture with the mother breastfeeding her 5 year old is ridiculous.  The boy from Time is old enough to drive (ok so maybe not) and his face is clearly recognizeable. That Time cover was wrong for a different reason.

So to recap.  Breastfeeding fine, in public fine, beyond a certain age (when they have enough teeth to chew a steak) not fine, in your uniform in a private place fine, in your uniform unbuttoned for a camerawoman not fine.



2012-05-31 3:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?
Muskrat37 - 2012-05-31 3:57 PM

What I have gathered is that the uniform does indeed an a bit of controversy to the issue but is there an "issue" to begin with? Does anyone know anyone that thinks breast feeding in public is actually an issue? (not talking about uniforms here, just a mom out for a stroll or doing some shopping)  I am wondering if the "issue" of public breast feeding was stirred up by the media.  Did they poke the hornets nest, or is it a real "issue"?


If it's in the media, chances are it's not really a REAL issue at all.
2012-05-31 4:12 PM
in reply to: #4237702

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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?

Muskrat37 - 2012-05-31 1:57 PM What I have gathered is that the uniform does indeed an a bit of controversy to the issue but is there an "issue" to begin with? Does anyone know anyone that thinks breast feeding in public is actually an issue? (not talking about uniforms here, just a mom out for a stroll or doing some shopping)  I am wondering if the "issue" of public breast feeding was stirred up by the media.  Did they poke the hornets nest, or is it a real "issue"?

Do a search, not sure if the thread survived or not but there was a 30+ page thread on the issue of breastfeeding that will give you more than an eyeful (not of breasts, just opinions unfortunately).

It was started because someone objected to the practice in the middle of the congregation at church, I believe it was called "distracting". 

2012-05-31 4:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?
Aarondb4 - 2012-05-31 5:12 PM

Do a search, not sure if the thread survived or not but there was a 30+ page thread on the issue of breastfeeding that will give you more than an eyeful (not of breasts, just opinions unfortunately).

That thread was great.

 

2012-05-31 4:23 PM
in reply to: #4237354

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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?
Sorry guys, but I have to disagree. It IS an issue. Until you've had someone publicly degrade you and try to humiliate you for feeding your child in a way that has been done for thousand...millions...(whatever) of years, you really don't know the extent of it. All the times it happened, I was covered, the only thing you could see was baby's feet. And more often than not, in an out of the way booth or corner.

As for people making it an issue because they're for it ... well, yeah, some moms go over the top. (Okay, a lot do when pressing the point). But I stand by my opinion that it isn't just an issue because of the people who are for it. It's an issue because of the people that insist that women go to the bathroom for nursing an infant, it's an issue when people get kicked off planes for nursing an infant, it's an issue when people get kicked out of restaurants, etc. Do a search - I bet you can find pages of results where women have been kicked out of places, made to feel unwelcome, etc. It makes it even worse when your own family criticizes your choices.

2012-05-31 4:28 PM
in reply to: #4237726

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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?
GomesBolt - 2012-05-31 3:10 PM

So to recap.  Breastfeeding fine, in public fine, beyond a certain age (when they have enough teeth to chew a steak) not fine, in your uniform in a private place fine, in your uniform unbuttoned for a camerawoman not fine.

Best. Comment. Evar.


2012-05-31 4:34 PM
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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?
ironultrared - 2012-05-31 4:28 PM
GomesBolt - 2012-05-31 3:10 PM

So to recap.  Breastfeeding fine, in public fine, beyond a certain age (when they have enough teeth to chew a steak) not fine, in your uniform in a private place fine, in your uniform unbuttoned for a camerawoman not fine.

Best. Comment. Evar.

Yes, they are in violation of UCMJ for using their uniform for a "campaign" for breast feeding awareness for Mom2Mom. 

Now, why is this more of a bigger deal than when the woman was on the cover of time breastfeeding her 3 year old child?  

2012-05-31 4:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?

I've never had an issue with breastfeeding in public.  The great majority of the time the women have been extra discrete.  However, one time in a Doctor's waiting room, a woman lifted her shirt, whipped it out, then waited while her kid (toddler) decided whether or not he wanted to eat. She looked around the room at all of us with the shocked look on our faces and asked, "haven't you ever seen a bewb before"?  One guy said, "yes I have, I just haven't seen yours".

Priceless.

2012-05-31 5:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?
Aarondb4 - 2012-05-31 5:12 PM

Muskrat37 - 2012-05-31 1:57 PM What I have gathered is that the uniform does indeed an a bit of controversy to the issue but is there an "issue" to begin with? Does anyone know anyone that thinks breast feeding in public is actually an issue? (not talking about uniforms here, just a mom out for a stroll or doing some shopping)  I am wondering if the "issue" of public breast feeding was stirred up by the media.  Did they poke the hornets nest, or is it a real "issue"?

Do a search, not sure if the thread survived or not but there was a 30+ page thread on the issue of breastfeeding that will give you more than an eyeful (not of breasts, just opinions unfortunately).

It was started because someone objected to the practice in the middle of the congregation at church, I believe it was called "distracting". 

I missed that thread, I'm sure.....but I used to breast feed my babies in the middle of church.  Step one sit out of the way.  Step two toss a light blanket over the shoulder before undoing the clothing.  Step three once uncovered pop baby to breast and not miss anything in the service.  Smaller churches don't have the funds for higher tech sound equipment that would transmit the sermon to another part of the building.

At first glance, I was not offended in the least by the OP photo.  However, since it is a direct violation of Military code.....I do have to take an issue in that these women knew the code when they had that photo taken.

2012-05-31 6:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?
These women actually received permission from their Chain of Command to have these pictures used. I was actually featured in the Air Force Times magazine a few years ago because I was sent away when my daughter was 6 months old, but I was able to pump and ship the milk back home to her. In order to actually even talk to the journalist, I had to go through Public Affairs to have the story approved and then have a Public Affairs officer sit next to me and approve everything being asked/answered as well as the photos that were used. In addition, I also was asked to tell my story for a book for breast feeding moms in the military. My entire submission, including photos, were inspected by our PA office before allowing release of it to JAG before they approved it. Oh, and you don't just see moms breast feeding their children out and about while driving around on base...just doesn't happen!
2012-05-31 6:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?
ironultrared - 2012-05-31 2:23 PM Sorry guys, but I have to disagree. It IS an issue. Until you've had someone publicly degrade you and try to humiliate you for feeding your childin a way that has been done for thousand...millions...(whatever) of years, you really don't know the extent of it. All the times it happened, I was covered, the only thing you could see was baby's feet. And more often than not, in an out of the way booth or corner.

As for people making it an issue because they're for it ... well, yeah, some moms go over the top. (Okay, a lot do when pressing the point). But I stand by my opinion that it isn't just an issue because of the people who are for it. It's an issue because of the people that insist that women go to the bathroom for nursing an infant, it's an issue when people get kicked off planes for nursing an infant, it's an issue when people get kicked out of restaurants, etc. Do a search - I bet you can find pages of results where women have been kicked out of places, made to feel unwelcome, etc. It makes it even worse when your own family criticizes your choices.

If I saw someone doing this, I would step in.  I think it's ridiculous that anyone would get offended by this.  



2012-05-31 6:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?
lonoscurse - 2012-05-31 2:38 PM

I've never had an issue with breastfeeding in public.  The great majority of the time the women have been extra discrete.  However, one time in a Doctor's waiting room, a woman lifted her shirt, whipped it out, then waited while her kid (toddler) decided whether or not he wanted to eat. She looked around the room at all of us with the shocked look on our faces and asked, "haven't you ever seen a bewb before"?  One guy said, "yes I have, I just haven't seen yours".

Priceless.

Hilarious....

2012-05-31 6:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?

mmez - 2012-05-31 6:20 PM These women actually received permission from their Chain of Command to have these pictures used. I was actually featured in the Air Force Times magazine a few years ago because I was sent away when my daughter was 6 months old, but I was able to pump and ship the milk back home to her. In order to actually even talk to the journalist, I had to go through Public Affairs to have the story approved and then have a Public Affairs officer sit next to me and approve everything being asked/answered as well as the photos that were used. In addition, I also was asked to tell my story for a book for breast feeding moms in the military. My entire submission, including photos, were inspected by our PA office before allowing release of it to JAG before they approved it. Oh, and you don't just see moms breast feeding their children out and about while driving around on base...just doesn't happen!

Well this is good to know!  I am glad they had permission!  

2012-05-31 6:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?
Aarondb4 - 2012-05-31 3:05 PM 

Agree that I doubt there is a lot of "outrage" over the picture. Sounded to me like the article was trying to drum up drama, it didn't point to any protests or breastfeeding women having stones thrown at them.

However I do see this particular picture as a pretty cheap publicity stunt that is in poor taste. I have read enough regs on uniform to know that purposefully posing in uniform like that is against the spirit if not the exact letter of the rules.

I think a lot of things (like breastfeeding in public) wouldn't be such a big deal if people who were for it would just shut up about it. Do we really need an awareness campaign for breastfeeding? I assume it has been going on for a few centuries. Why throw up a picture like this other than to stir the pot?

Yo Aaron, I've gotta say I strongly disagree with that sentence.  Without pot-stirrers, things don't change.  

More women breastfeeding = greater well-being for the future generation.  

More women breastfeeding in public = greater familiarity with the act = increased acceptance = less breastfeeding women being treated unjustly = positive cycle continues!  

As for the uniform issue, hey if they got permission through their chain of command,  go for it.

2012-05-31 7:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?
ecozenmama - 2012-05-31 5:36 PM

mmez - 2012-05-31 6:20 PM These women actually received permission from their Chain of Command to have these pictures used. I was actually featured in the Air Force Times magazine a few years ago because I was sent away when my daughter was 6 months old, but I was able to pump and ship the milk back home to her. In order to actually even talk to the journalist, I had to go through Public Affairs to have the story approved and then have a Public Affairs officer sit next to me and approve everything being asked/answered as well as the photos that were used. In addition, I also was asked to tell my story for a book for breast feeding moms in the military. My entire submission, including photos, were inspected by our PA office before allowing release of it to JAG before they approved it. Oh, and you don't just see moms breast feeding their children out and about while driving around on base...just doesn't happen!

Well this is good to know!  I am glad they had permission!  




OK I am still at work and had to chime in. I would like to believe they had permission but the truth of the matter is that they didn't have to. The press if dying to get stories like this (and why shouldn't they be since it is creating quite a stir) and if someone is willing to step up then they will go for it. These two women are Guard Reserves not active duty so it is not out of the question that they didn't have permission before this. On a similar note when a plane crashed out here on base the base went to lock down, cell phones turned in etc until they figured out what happened. Yet with all this someone still told the press that they thought the plane had issues before it crashed and also took pictures of the wreckage...which isn't allowed but they did it. You think this is bad how about a mother getting to look on the internet of a photo of her son's flight helmet laying on the ground in a field after he died!!!! OK OK I will calm down now...sorry just gets me fired up
2012-05-31 7:32 PM
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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?
trmat79 - 2012-05-31 8:17 PM
ecozenmama - 2012-05-31 5:36 PM

mmez - 2012-05-31 6:20 PM These women actually received permission from their Chain of Command to have these pictures used. I was actually featured in the Air Force Times magazine a few years ago because I was sent away when my daughter was 6 months old, but I was able to pump and ship the milk back home to her. In order to actually even talk to the journalist, I had to go through Public Affairs to have the story approved and then have a Public Affairs officer sit next to me and approve everything being asked/answered as well as the photos that were used. In addition, I also was asked to tell my story for a book for breast feeding moms in the military. My entire submission, including photos, were inspected by our PA office before allowing release of it to JAG before they approved it. Oh, and you don't just see moms breast feeding their children out and about while driving around on base...just doesn't happen!

Well this is good to know!  I am glad they had permission!  

OK I am still at work and had to chime in. I would like to believe they had permission but the truth of the matter is that they didn't have to. The press if dying to get stories like this (and why shouldn't they be since it is creating quite a stir) and if someone is willing to step up then they will go for it. These two women are Guard Reserves not active duty so it is not out of the question that they didn't have permission before this. On a similar note when a plane crashed out here on base the base went to lock down, cell phones turned in etc until they figured out what happened. Yet with all this someone still told the press that they thought the plane had issues before it crashed and also took pictures of the wreckage...which isn't allowed but they did it. You think this is bad how about a mother getting to look on the internet of a photo of her son's flight helmet laying on the ground in a field after he died!!!! OK OK I will calm down now...sorry just gets me fired up
The article said they did not have permission. ""The Air Force has never endorsed these photos," the photographer, Brynja Sigurdardottir points out on her website, where she posted several other photos from the Mom2Mom campaign. "These women just happen to be in the Air Force, in their uniform, breastfeeding their babies." I know what you're saying about the PAO needing to monitor and approve communications with the military, but if you look at the article, they had no such permission. In fact, the response from the Air Force went to regs and said "Air Force spokesperson Captain Rose Richeson told MSNBC: "Airmen should be mindful of their dress and appearance and present a professional image at all times while in uniform." Military moms who are still breastfeeding are encouraged to pump and bottle-feed their babies while they're in uniform. "


2012-05-31 10:25 PM
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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?
Not out or in any other way raged at all.
2012-05-31 11:00 PM
in reply to: #4237354

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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?

I am not.  I might feel differently if I had been in the military and felt more personal about the uniform, dress code, rules and regs.    But I think Breast feeding is a very normal thing and should be more "normalized" in our society as that is what the boob is for.  

But it gets me thinking of what an interesting calander it would make to have "artsy candid" photos of women breast feeding in their professional dress in a calander.   A different type of Calander Girls.  Doctor/construction worker/Judge/waitress/geologist/fire(wo)man/etc.

yes - I am a geologist (but not a mom) so I added this "unconventional" job.   Please feel free to add yours.   

The mother for the geologist month would probably be at least 30,  in good shape with a very "natural" look.  No makeup, ponytail or short curls.    Boots, cargo jeans with a note book in the pocket, t-shirt and pocket field vest, canvas sun hat, and a belt with with a gps, compus, leatherman, and rock hammer hanging off of it, back pack off to the side.....   Sitting on a mountain top, on a brecciated outcrop, with the sun setting behind....    The baby would be wearing the smallest carharts ever made, with a purple onesey.



Edited by bootygirl 2012-05-31 11:10 PM
2012-06-01 12:09 AM
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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?

I'm concerned with the twins being held to the twins by their necks.  She has one hand on each kid, how is their weight being supported?!?

2012-06-01 6:47 AM
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Subject: RE: Are you really outraged?
faded_memories - 2012-06-01 12:09 AM

I'm concerned with the twins being held to the twins by their necks.  She has one hand on each kid, how is their weight being supported?!?

Suction.

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