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2005-07-11 7:52 PM
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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?
possum - 2005-07-11 4:38 PM

Title IX passed in 1972. That means for every woman older than 33, the idea that they, as women/girls, deserved the same time and money and attention re: athletics was not something they grew up with. So it's not that they can't do stuff, or that they are lesser athletes, it's just that MANY women are missing a psychological part of "athletics" that many men and younger women have possibly taken for granted


Possum,

Thanks. This is just the best explanation of what appears to be wuss-dom on the part of otherwise competent, achieving females. Like me! I've come to BT for two years now, I get somewhat involved, get training. And stop. My success right now is just getting back to the forum and the website.

One really hates to appear a total wimp, to say nothing of quitter. But this whole tri thing truly hits deep areas of my psyche. Very tender ones, too, I might add. Which isn't to say I see it as anyone's journey but my own. It's just that it's so nice that you understand!!

I'm back to training, and I still choke on that word. I am the premier non-athlete, overweight and a genuine klutz from the word go. But I'm trying to tri.

I really love BT. Thanks again, Possum.


2005-07-11 7:55 PM
in reply to: #195297

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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?
Technikal, very well said. Great post.
2005-07-11 7:59 PM
in reply to: #195297

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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?
My God girls don't you understand! You've got half the money and all the %$#@*. What greater power do you need? Next thing you know you'll want to vote. We just want to wear spandex and run the Danskin race with you, is that asking too much?
2005-07-11 8:06 PM
in reply to: #195313

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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?
Do you think that NOW or the other liberal fem-nazi groups would ever stand for an athletic competition that was advertised as "FOR MEN ONLY." Never in a million years!!!!


I am seriously offended by the term fem-Nazi.  Do you know what a Nazi is?  Do you know what they did?  Do you know how it belittling it is to equate the death of 8 million with someone who has political views different than your own?  It disrespects their memory, makes a farce of their death.  Please do not equate feminists with Nazis - or ANYONE whose political viewpoints you disagree with as Nazis.  That's not what a Nazi is.

(I don't care to attempt to educate you on any of the other things you're so ignorant about, but that one really gets me.)

Gwendal
2005-07-11 8:17 PM
in reply to: #195297

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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?
Karl...go to a womens race and volunteer...then you will get it.  The Danskin race I did was more of an event...lots of you can do it attitude and more about finishing the race than competeing against any one but yourself
2005-07-11 8:19 PM
in reply to: #195315

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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?
MomX3 - 2005-07-11 7:11 PMThere were so few first timers and true BOPers at my duathlon last week, I was kind of surprised. I read somwhere (danskin website or Sally Edwards book) that about 1/2 of the ladies at danskin races are 1st timers.


I signed up to do a Danskin that's 100 miles away versus a co-ed triathlon in my home town the following week-end because I preferred the difference in cultures: the Danskin really welcomes fat middle-aged ladies with baskets on their beach bikes.  I've been to coed races and the Athenas and just absent: no BOP rallies, no love and support, no body fat percentages over 18%.  The Danskin is entry level.

And it's a capitalist thing.  It costs $80 to register, and Danskin makes women's sportswear for a living.  If Under Armour wants to sell Men's Triathlon briefs you might expect them to have a men's only race to showcase it.  (But, as someone pointed out, men LIKE having the eye candy, so it's no big deal.)

I don't fear or hate men, but I am scared about the idea of a 200 pound man in a wave behind me swimming over me in the race.  Personally, I don't really have a problem with men seeing my flab flapping in the wind as I run, but I know plenty of women who would be weirded out by that and choose women-only workout rooms.  It's equivalent to asking why we have to have separate-sex bathrooms.  Just because it makes some people feel more comfortable.  I dunno why - I can handle seeing a man peeing - but certainly plenty of people care.  So a capitalist society provides that for which people are willing to pay.

It seems like you have a lot of time on your hands if you can spare the time to be pissed about the existance of Danskin.  Why not go agitate against country clubs that won't allow you on their greens without a membership, or agitate for equal access to yachts for everyone regardless of geographic region or ability to pay?  It would be equally absurd.

Gwendal


2005-07-11 8:26 PM
in reply to: #195297

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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?

Women's only tri's seem to get people involved who would never otherwise do a triathlon.  The Danskin especially is very encouraging, as you are guaranteed to NOT come in last.

Some women have issues with letting anyone see them in athletic clothing (my mom for example.)

Some women feel like men are "judging" them on their performance - this is their own insecurity, not that you men out there judge anybody.

I think that the more race venues, etc. that encourage more people to get more active the better off we all are.

I can see the appeal of these events, but have never done one myself.  I've found a real competitive streak inside myself, (even though I'm dead slow), and I really enjoy the co-ed races.  That said, if a women's only race came up that worked it with my schedule I'd do it.

2005-07-11 8:31 PM
in reply to: #195297

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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?
Just a quick note.
Did the Danskin yesterday for the third time and each year it is just as rewarding and inspiring as the last. It is an event which raises money for breast cancer research and introduces women to a sport they would never even think of attempting.
I experienced a moment after the race when I went to get my bike from the transition area:
As women were waiting for the last bikers to finish before being allowed to remove their own bikes, the women all lined up along the fence and created a wall of people, applauding and yelling encouragement to each and every rider still coming in from the course 3+ hours after the start. I had goosebumps as I stood there cheering these women on and watching the smiles come across their sweaty red faces as they prepared for the 5K. There were women of all shapes, sizes, ages and abilities who were all striving for one goal- to finish a triathlon and here were hundreds of women cheering them on to the finish.
I'm sorry, but men are just so darn competitive and have to out do each other, that I don't see something like this happening at a co ed event. As others have said, it's just a more relaxed and less competitive atmosphere for a first timer to start.
2005-07-11 8:41 PM
in reply to: #195303

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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?
COgirl - 2005-07-11 6:56 PM

Well, women just rock, that's all there is to it!   

My husband gets pissed at the idea too.  he says he's going to start a tri series called "Manskin"




How about the Foreskin?


I know, I know.. .I'll shut up now.


2005-07-11 8:54 PM
in reply to: #195313

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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?

bballer2tri - 2005-07-11 6:09 PM One of the BT.com newbies "kneerad" is going to have a hissy with this post and I know I will get e-mails from her...she is one of the ultra-liberal Fem-nazis I was referring to...I know...I was in a realtionship with her for almost 2 years... that is my 2 cents..

Sounds to me like you have a whole lot more piss and vinegar...and maybe a HUGELY hurt ego....than you do brains.

2005-07-11 8:56 PM
in reply to: #195297

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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?

Oh, Possum, I think that was one of the most eloquent, well written things I've read in a very long time. Clearly you are far more cool-headed than I am when confronted with terms like "Fem-nazi". 



2005-07-11 9:19 PM
in reply to: #195297

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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?
another angle -

last weekend a female friend and i were checking out the vineman course - i'm doing the full iron and she's doing Barb's race (which is a Female Only, but the same course and distance as the 1/2 vineman which is a Kona qualifier. oddly enough, the full iron is not, but such is the strangeness of the Ironman world...)
to keep me company.

so my friend caught up with a female rider on the course, struck up a conversation, and asked if Mrs. Rider was training for Barb's. answer: no, i'm going to do the REAL vineman. mind you, not the Iron distance, but the Kona qualifying one which is exactly the same as Barb's race. and it's not like she stands a snowball's chance in hell to qualify if my friend managed to catch up with her, much less overtake her.

the morale of the story: there's elitist women and elitist men. nothing will ever change that. no separate races, no nothing. i don't see a need for gender separate races. if anything we should separate type A asshole racers from the rest. and there's just as many of them amongst the females as there are among the males!

Edited by awol 2005-07-11 9:21 PM
2005-07-11 9:25 PM
in reply to: #195297

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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?

IMO, we live in a society that at the very least can be characterized as slanted toward men - consider who holds positions of power in our society...are they generally men or women?  This problem stems from our culture, and is deeply rooted in our society and these issues have only recently being addressed, i.e. woman are suppose to act/behave a certain way, women are supposed to be house wifes, woman are to be subordinate, etc (these of course are NOT wholesale problems). 

So, going off that I don't see how we can truly have "equality" when woman start behind the proverbial 8 ball.  Hence this is why we have Title IX and affirmative action laws.  These laws help to MAKE equality possible by providing an opportunity for woman to excel.  By providing female only triathlons Danskin and Reebok are trying to have a positive effect and in the end try to MAKE equality possible.  This is done by taking males out of the equation and make triathlons less threatening and more accepting to females (among other reasons) while hopefully erasing the damage done by gender stereotyping.

My .02 cents

2005-07-11 9:28 PM
in reply to: #195484

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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?
awol - 2005-07-11 10:19 PManother angle -last weekend a female friend and i were checking out the vineman course - i'm doing the full iron and she's doing Barb's race (which is a Female Only, but the same course and distance as the 1/2 vineman which is a Kona qualifier. oddly enough, the full iron is not, but such is the strangeness of the Ironman world...) to keep me company. so my friend caught up with a female rider on the course, struck up a conversation, and asked if Mrs. Rider was training for Barb's. answer: no, i'm going to do the REAL vineman. mind you, not the Iron distance, but the Kona qualifying one which is exactly the same as Barb's race. and it's not like she stands a snowball's chance in hell to qualify if my friend managed to catch up with her, much less overtake her.the morale of the story: there's elitist women and elitist men. nothing will ever change that. no separate races, no nothing. i don't see a need for gender separate races. if anything we should separate type A asshole racers from the rest. and there's just as many of them amongst the females as there are among the males!


Good point about the Type A's, but they do tend to segregate themselves.

Just a point about your friend being able to overtake the Type A on the bike: you don't know what sort of training ride she was on.  I was in a situation yesterday where I was doing a run off the bike after doing a swim/bike brick, too.  I was wiped out and trying to keep in Zone 1 for the run, but I happened to be with someone who had never heard of zone training and thought I was just a wuss for stopping to walk on hills.  Fact is, I worked out for two straight hours in hot sun and knew I shouldn't push the run so I didn't.  But the person who ran with me probably went home satisfied that she can whoop my pretentious-triathlon-training butt.  But I was secretly planning to whoop hers on race day.  :-)

Gwendal
2005-07-11 9:42 PM
in reply to: #195495

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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?
Gwendal - it wasn't like that.

my friend is a CA Iroman finisher and a nordic skiing coach. she's run 13 marathons and i don't know how many 1/2 irons. she can read people.

this particular one was just an elitist assholette.

granted - males are more prone to be competitive assholes, but they don't hold the exclusive right.

i find it unfair to blame the intimidation that a mass start holds on the males. shit - if you want to run with the big dogs train for it. i suffer just as much in training as the gals do and i don't get cut no slack either.

so - sorry. i'll always treat women with respect, but if they want to compete in the the same event i will treat them as equals.
2005-07-11 9:50 PM
in reply to: #195495

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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?
I recently read a fascinating article in Runner's World. The article was about a transgendered individual. As a man, he had been an excellent age-group runner. Once this individual began taking the hormones to change gender from male to female, the 5k times immediately slowed 6 minutes. There was no psychological component to this- she was shocked at the outcome. It was merely the result of all the changes that went on in her body due to the estrogen- she gained weight around her hips, increased body fat overall, didn't have the oxygen carrying capability that high levels of testostrone provided. Just like women overall are smaller than men overall, we have less oxygen carrying capability and more body fat. So on average, its going to be a little more intimidating for begining women to compete in a co-ed event.
I was reminded of this recently when I saw my results from my recent race. The race was probably 70% men. I was in the middle of the pack for women and far at the bottom overall. If you are at the bottom of the pack for women, it takes a lot of courage to come out to these events. I'm not going to lecture here, but have some compassion for the women who need a more supportive atmosphere to race. We want everyone to succeed, right?


2005-07-11 10:09 PM
in reply to: #195313

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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?

bballer2tri - 2005-07-11 4:09 PM OH BOY!!! I was in a realtionship with her for almost 2 years... that is my 2 cents..

Geez anyone who can take two years with you deserves a medal! Or a good psychiatrist! Wow, what venom, what completely over the top answer to a innocent question.

I find it interesting that men - who are supposed to be in control of the world - get so threatened when there's a women's only event. They bitch and moan and worse "question." They say "I just don't understand it," a not so subtle way of saying that whatever that women's only event is it's wrong and insane. I did triathlons for the first time last year and my first one was a women's only. And I loved that because it was (I hate to say it girls) more nurturing and comforting. Danskin was one of the best triathlons I ever did. So affirming of me as a person and as a woman. It was the reason why I got inot triathlons. When I did my first co-ed tri - geez it was crazy. Men and their ultra competativeness it was crazy. I'm not a naturally competetive person so it was a new experience for me. But women can be bitches so hey they've got their mean streaks too.

I like gender only events because I hate all this PC crap that says men and women must mix and mingle on all things - career, sports, etc. I don't like to be with men all the time. They smell, they're loud, many aren't too bright, (ok that was an unnecessary dig). But men need time with men and women need to be with women. And we don't ALWAYS have to do everything together. Thank God we don't have to.

That's my 2 and I'm sticking to that.  

2005-07-11 11:00 PM
in reply to: #195297

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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?
As someone who is signed up for the Danskins next weekend, if it wasn't for the all-female, non-competitive, supportive environment, I would NEVER have believed that I could do this.  Now, 6 months after signing up, I am training 7 days/week, in the best shape of my life, and believe that I will finish MOP.  After hearing Sally Edwards speak early in my training, seeing the women of all shapes and sizes in that room...I was INSPIRED.  We all had our own personal reasons for doing this...our own demons to battle...but we will ALL do a triathlon.  Think of that...how amazing that is.  If an all-female event can cause so many women to feel such an amazing feeling of empowerment...long live that event!  As for me, I've already signed up for other co-ed events...but I really look forward to that comraderie that comes with 2000 vessels of estrogen in one place!

Melanie
2005-07-12 12:53 AM
in reply to: #195297

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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?

I did Danskin races the first six years they had them.  The first one was a 1/2 mile away from my house.  That was totally cool to get up at 7:00 AM for an 8:00 AM start.  I was a lot less anal about setting up my transition area back then.

The early races were fairly small, 400 to 1000 women depending on the venue.  A number of women pros came out to do the races.  They were very accessable to everyone both before and after the race.  You'd see everything from 1 speed beach cruisers to state of the art tri-bikes.  I should say what was state of the art back in the early 90s.

The age groups were very competive.  I raced against women who to this day are stilled ranked amongst the top in my age group.  Out of the 6 Danskin races I did, I placed Top 3 in my age group 3 times.  The other times I was close, but got outran.  I remember on some of the bike courses it was frustrating trying to get by the newbies on the beach cruisers, but I knew my fellow serious age group racers were having to deal with the same thing.  Even back then biking was my strongest event, and one of the few women that would pass me on the bike was Judy Flannery (age group world champion many years before being killed on a training ride.)

So why did this hardcore age grouper bother with these races?  I loved having a big "girls day out".  It was nice not having some testosterone fueled maniac, blazing down my butt yelling "On your left!"  Though at times I'm afraid I was a PMS'ed fueled maniac yelling "On your left!" at some poor gal on a mountain bike.  Also it was nice to hang out with all these different women and talk about girl stuff, without being embarressed that men would hear us talking about "biological issues".

I haven't done one of these races in many years.  My priorities have changed, and most of them would involve signicant travel.  I really don't want to travel far to do a race with such short distances.  The closest one to this area is Sandy Hook, NJ.  It's usually at a time of year where I'm gearing up for one of my major races. 

I hate to sound like an elitest, but being in a race with 2000 people of either sex who are totally new is not my idea of a a challenge I really want.  That would be something I'd rather mentor newbies for, or volunteer to be swim angel. I think what I have to offer is my experience.  I can do that better outside a race. I still like the idea of a women's race, but I wish they'd have an Olympic distance one.

2005-07-12 4:48 AM
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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?
I was on the bus leading to the start of the race Sunday and was around all these people (at the back) who thought it would be cool to open the emergancy door and jump out. They made fun of me because I, a 41 year old woman, would not do it. They were all men. There was a lot of stupid pressure to jump off the back of the bus by the guys. I ignored it and smiled and went down the steps because with my luck I would have broken an ankle but a lot of women just jumped. They did not want to they just did it.

I am not saying men make women do stupid things (well...) I am saying that women and men do stupid things because of peer pressure and a lot of those men were sort of "This ROCKS, I didn't train for it and I am gonna smoke em, bring it on baby" types. Same thing I see in my 8 year old somedays. That's great. That attitude has made some giant leaps forward for human kind! I love it. Sometimes tho I just want to not be around it. I am with guys all day (4 boys and a husband) and I can tell you they are different than I was growing up. I just want to race with the ladies sometimes.
2005-07-12 6:36 AM
in reply to: #195297

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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?
OK, some of us have tried to lighten this thread up a little by playing the devil's advocate or by saying something silly. But once again we must be facing a female synchronization issue.
Now, on the count of three,
ONE, TWO,THREE
BIIGGG HUUGGG
Everybody feel better. Now who really gives a %$#@


2005-07-12 7:20 AM
in reply to: #195297

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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?
I'm about the most woman-centric person around, and I go back and forth about this in my own mind. I used to belong to a woman's only gym that was eventually sued by a man just to make a point. (It's a very long story; PM me if you want details.) I loved that place. And I loved it not because of the many obvious reasons that have been stated already but mostly because it was clean and smelled good. Guys smell!

Seriously, I'm comfortable with athletics. I'm pretty competative even though I'm a BOP'er. I am all for equality AND equity. But I do get a weird feeling about exclusionary events even though I love them and I think women need some time to make up for the many many years we were excluded by men.

But, the thing is that the backlash around men's clubs and men's only events started not because women thought it was unfair that men got to hang around without women and smoke cigars and do whatever, but that they got to hang around, smoke cigars, do whatever, AND talk business. Talk about capitalism; that was the root of equality--especially for men and women's only spaces.

At the point, things have relaxed a lot with the business end of things and equality, but I think both genders still need time with their own to revel in what makes each gender different and special (even though I'm a gender bender from way back and way more "male" than some of my male friends).

All that said, I'm doing Danskin at the end of this month to see what it's like and probably get frustrated at all the newbies as I'm trying to blow by them on my bike.

2005-07-12 8:01 AM
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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?
fromer - 2005-07-11 9:25 PM

IMO, we live in a society that at the very least can be characterized as slanted toward men - consider who holds positions of power in our society...are they generally men or women?  This problem stems from our culture, and is deeply rooted in our society and these issues have only recently being addressed, i.e. woman are suppose to act/behave a certain way, women are supposed to be house wifes, woman are to be subordinate, etc (these of course are NOT wholesale problems). 

So, going off that I don't see how we can truly have "equality" when woman start behind the proverbial 8 ball.  Hence this is why we have Title IX and affirmative action laws.  These laws help to MAKE equality possible by providing an opportunity for woman to excel.  By providing female only triathlons Danskin and Reebok are trying to have a positive effect and in the end try to MAKE equality possible.  This is done by taking males out of the equation and make triathlons less threatening and more accepting to females (among other reasons) while hopefully erasing the damage done by gender stereotyping.

My .02 cents



It always irks me when people talk about achieving 'equality', whether it be in reference to gender, race, age, etc. The real goal should be to achieve 'equal opportunity'. What you do with it is your business. For example, I don't think that we will ever have an equal number of women as men in firefighting. Just the nature of the job attracts men more than women.

Just my non-confrontational contrubution to the thread.
2005-07-12 8:14 AM
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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?

What difference does it make, really? It's all good.

If it gets more women into the sport, it's a good thing. Am I right? Am I right?

2005-07-12 8:20 AM
in reply to: #195701

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Subject: RE: What is the point of Women's Only Tri's?
Renee - 2005-07-12 8:14 AM

What difference does it make, really? It's all good.

If it gets more women into the sport, it's a good thing. Am I right? Am I right?



That's my take on it. The more people who get off their butts and get moving, the better, right?

If women were doing women's only tri's and saying men couldn't and shouldn't do any triathlon at all, well, that'd be a different story and would be wrong. But women's only tris don't take anything away from anybody, they just add to the options. FWIW I would feel the same way about men's only triathlon. Who cares? Don't impact my co-ed race, and I don't care what you do.
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