For those interested in Kona> (Page 2)

Not to get too far OT, but one of the biggest problems, IMO, with PED's is that they do exactly what they're advertised to do.  You can have amazing gains with them.  But you can lose those gains nearly as quickly when you stop.  So for many of the people that I knew that were invovled in taking PED's (mainly anabolic steroids) once they started they had to keep going, just to maintain a constant level.

I don't know about things like HGH, or EPO, but with the anabolics, you just don't get that sore muscle feeling post workout.  That alone was enough of a benefit for many of the guys that I played football with in college.  You could go to the weight room, do huge weights, and lift to failure on each set.  Heck, maybe you'd devote an entire day to chest, and do 8 different exercises, 3 sets, 8-10 reps.  Next day, no soreness. 

PED's are really a slippery slope once you start down that road. 

I'd say a lot has to do with increasing field size and decreasing opportunities.  Back in the day, you used to be able to qualify for Kona at Olympic distance races.  Although then again, there weren't as may IMs back then either....

But I can tell you it's not necessarily a recent development.  I remember getting into the sport in 2004, and I knew several people that had qualified and gone to Kona.  Even then, they were lamenting that they probably couldn't qualify then given the times needed.  A friend qualified at IMFL 1999 in M 35-39.  Winner that year in that  AG went 9:31.  Winner in 2009 went 8:47 

I've noticed it has been going down when it should be going up;  i.e. more races equals less talent at each race.  But that's not the case. 

The field is getting more talented, and they are taking slots from races.  I don't know what number, but I know IMNZ lost somewhere in the range of 30 slots over 2 years.  With more IM's around, it just seems natural to allocate less slots to each race but then you have the 70.3 races taking slots. 

To me, this is the biggest issue I have with Kona qualification.  Why do you have athletes who are good at one distance (70.3) get a pass to Kona?  What exacerbates the problem is Clearwater has a quarter the prestige of Kona, and it creates a bigger demand for IMWC slots.  WTC needs to make the 70.3 World Champs more prestigous by moving it Kona.  This should give back more slots for real IM's, and make it a tad easier for athletes actually competing in Ironmans to qualify.


Just My 2 cents...

I'd contend that those athletes who are 'good at one distance' by qualifying at a 70.3 probably do just fine when they stack up against the rest of the competition in Kona.

The notion that you have to do an IM to get your ticket to Kona is a relatively new one.

I'd contend you are probably right, but they also have a huge advantage by not having to do a full IM if they are trying to win their AG.

 I totally agree, just not only with the whole cross contamination issue, but that many legal OTC supplements have trace amounts of something that will give a positive test.   I used to have a list of legal OTC things that athletes getting tested can't take due to this somewhere at home.

My guess would be:

1. More participation - The sport is growing and it is bringing more talent into the sport.
2. Better Training - with forums like this athletes are gaining better access to coaching or to understand more thoroughly training concepts and other key elements like nutrition, execution, etc.
3. Because of point no. 1, athletes now know they have to up their game hence training is becoming more specialized/intense, IOW better competition.
4. More time availability - The most competitive AGs for both male and females are around 30-45 yo and in my experience many (not all) of this athletes are also successful professionals. This allows them to have some extra time and resources ($$) for training.

- Better gear, bikes, technology.
- Better drugs.
- Better nutrition.
- Better drugs. 
- Triathlon is getting more popular, so more people to compete against.
- Better drugs.

You guys are way to stuck on the whole doping aspect.  You have no control over, and no proof of it.  Right now they're just assumptions based on guesses.  I'm not saying people don't dope, but I think its in poor taste to accuse people of doping (even if indirectly) when there's no proof.

Some may dope in the sport but its being made out that everyone is doing it, and I think that's far from the case.  The IMSG winner was busted a year prior to winning and an IMLP pro had some pretty harsh accusations against him 2 years ago but past that there's no evidence of rampant doping.

Keep in mind alot of these amatuers trying to qualify are highly paid professionals with alot to lose. 

It would be in the best interest of the WTC to test everyone going to Kona; they don't have to test any of them.  The anxiety of testing would prevent a few from doping.


Edited by furiousferret 2010-08-09 5:26 PM

I'm not being anything but a realist.  Doping is rampant in a lot of amateur sports.  Why would I think triathlon is different?  I'm not accusing any one person.  I'm saying, based on deductive reasoning, it exists.

Why in the world would the WTC want to test AG'ers?  What good could possibly come from it?  I'm guessing a single test costs over $500 (I believe I've read $800, though).  Besides the costs, think of the negative publicity associated with a positive testing AG'er.  And....who really cares?

ETA:  I still get a bit nervous when I get a "golden flow" test at work and wonder if I will come up with something.  And I am cautious about the few supplements I take.

What I meant was, p*ss test everyone who qualifies.  You don't have to send a single one in for testing.  That alone would be a huge deterrent.

Edited by furiousferret 2010-08-09 5:46 PM

The Kona slot allocation is much higher in full IM distance races, though.  So much, in fact, that many of the people competing for a 70.3 slot will also plan a full IM in the same year, in case they don't get one of the 1 or 2 slots at the half.

Are you suggesting they test AG'ers? Why? They aren't in contention for winning any money.

If there is 'rampant' cheating like everyone suggests (and I dont think there is), yes.  There is alot at stake outside of prize money. 

ferret...

Gotcha.  Sooner or later, you'd have to test someone, though.  Can you imagine giving a sample, NOT testing positive, and knowing you were?....lol

I just don't think they wanna know.  That's all.

Funny how everyone that is successful gets accused of doping. Tiger Woods was accused of steroids when hitting the ball way past everyone years ago. Lance Armstong accused when beating everyone for years. Triathletes getting faster, it must be drugs.

I don't buy it. Drugs have been around for years in every sport. What is causing everyone to get faster and better is better technology, better equipment, better science, better training, better coaching, etc, etc.   Not more poeple using drugs....

Like what? Just so you are aware, I had to sign a sponsorship agreement with a sports marketing company prior to joining the ZOOT Ultra Team stating I have never used PED's and if I was caught using them I would be banned from the team. So there's the quasi-sponsorship angle covered, but what elese do you think we get as KQ's?

It's a recreational, amateur sport. I agree that I don't think there's very much of it, I certainly have never come across it, but that doesn't mean it's not possible. But I have never heard anyone voice an opinion that they lost a slot because of PED use in the AG circles I run in. WTC has no perception issue of AG doping to tarnish their events, so why pay for it?

This user's post has been ignored.

If red wine and beer are every classified as PED's I'm screwed.

I read several of your posts in this thread. Just because I, or you, may not be able to imagine doing times like this does not mean we should immediately blame PEDs.

They guy that won IMLP 40-44 this year is a local guy here. If you met him you would realize how ridiculous an accusation like PEDs would be.

He has been doing this for over 20 years. He works like a mad man. He is a dedicated community man. He is a dedicated school teacher. He is a dedicated father. He is just starting his kids in tri. He races every weekend. And he goes all out, every race. This weekend he raced two races, back to back. He is always willing to help others. He is a community guy, solid values....just a great guy.

A friend of mine has know him for years and he has always been like that. Just putting in tons and tons and tons of hours, all at full tilt. I cannot imagine training like that. But having met this guy, his wife, having seen his dtermination, I know the way to get there is not necessarily PEDS.

I will never get there because I don't have the drive, the talent or the gonads. But just because I won't get there, doesn't mean he needs PEDs to get there.

Yes, there are plenty of people that give off this image of 'mr perfect', but this guy is for real. And there are plenty others.

He has always been a great biker. But he was a bad swimmer and an average runner. But he spent tons and tons of time in the pool and on the run. I think he did 55min in Placid. Not bad for a 'terrible' swimmer (self proclaimed). I doubt PEDs got him to 55min. Very hard work did.

Just because someone does something we can never imagine doing does not mean they are doped. Sorry for the rant, between this and the accusations against Chrissie it's just getting to be annoying.

There was thread a little while ago wondering if an AG'er could beat the pro's. If that ever happened where some body came out of no where and posted the fastest time that would raise a few questions and most likely result in some testing. This not lot likely to happen. If there is no money being exchanged, there is no reason to test.

Like others have said the reduction in times is a normal result of improved training, equipment, etc. The technology has filtered down to the AG'ers. The other thing is more good athletes are getting into triathlons. This combination will result in times dropping for a little while longer,naturally.

Just stop it.  I accused NO ONE.  I said it's in the sport.  It is.  

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Edited by nc452010 2010-08-09 7:00 PM