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Zone 2 runners......... have some questions (Page 2)
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 2013-05-20 7:55 AM in reply to: mikericci |
Regular  287   Levittown, PA |  Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questionsOriginally posted by mikericci Spider Here's my $0.02: 1. What type of workouts have you done leading into this 'easy run' today? There are 3 metrics to use when running: 2. HR 3. RPE You had RPE to fall back on since HR wasn't working. You didn't tell us what your Avg Pace was for your test, but let's say it was 7:45. Add 90-120" to that pace and that should be your long run pace/ Zone 2 / RPE odf 6/10. That would put you at 9:15 to 9:45. I hope this helps you figure this out. Another option of course is to race a 5k or 10k - this will give you LT pace and HR. RPE should be 9/10 when it's all said and done. Thanks for the replies everybody and thanks for chiming in Mike. Leading up to my LT test I had one 5 mile run on 5/12 and then 3 days rest and did my LT test on 5/15. No other work outs in between. Then my first zone 2 run I had a 1200 yard swim on 5/16 and then my 5 mile zone 2 run on 5/18. Then I just did another 4.25 miles today on 5/20. There has been little to no stress over the past week or so and all of my tests and training runs I have eaten the exact same thing each morning, roughly the same amount of sleep and weather conditions were also perfect and I ran the same exact route all 3 times. Today's run which was my 2nd attempt at zone 2 running. I wanted to try and carry what I perceived to be a zone 2 pace which I guessed to be around a 10' 30" ish type of pace for the first few miles just to see what happens. During that time my heart rate was anywhere from 138 to about 143. I carried this pace for just over 3 miles and it never deviated much between that range. After 3.5 miles I decided to see what I had to do to get me HR to get back into what I am being told was my zone 2 rate. I gradually increased speed over the distance of probably just over a quarter mile and after a stready stint at 8' 39" my heart finally just barely got into zone 2 at 156bpm. Pretty much the same results as the previous day. It takes me running at a race pace for my HR to get into zone 2. Mike, I went back and checked my pace for my LT and my nike+ app gets somewhat detailed but not as much as I would like, but I checked and the last 2.6 miles of my test I ran at 8' 28" pace. This would avg out to be almost exactly 20 mins worth of time which would be the equivalent to the duration of the TT test. So if that is the case, if I add 90 to 120 seconds to that number, it would give me a range of roughly 10' to 10' 30" and the run I did today I avg'd 10' 34" and it felt like what I am assuming a zone 2 run SHOULD feel like. I really want to make this Zone 2 training work. I have a fellow triathlete at work with me, I know he has a top of the line Garmin HR. I think I am going to ask him to let me borrow it and maybe do another LT to see if I come up with the same numbers. Think that is a good idea? I might have t wait a few days though. The LT run and that first zone 2 hard run for me really took a toll on me. I'm still just a bit sore from 2 hard runs in a one week time |
| 2013-05-20 11:32 AM in reply to: AdventureBear |
Regular 287 Levittown, PA | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Originally posted by AdventureBear Training is testing and testing is training. Understanding the "problem" with yoru 2 runs will require some understanding of exercise physiology, which you can easily leanr the basics. Aaerobic vs aerobic & the contribtutions of each energy system in different durations of training. Zone 2 is intended to be entirely aereobic with very little carb use, mostly fats and no build up of lactate. This means almost by definitoin that breathing is easy...there is no acidosis which si the stimulus for increased breathing rate. The 20 or 30 minute test...especially if you started out really easy in the first 10 minutes of a 30 minute test and then went all out, is going to have a large anaerobic contribution to it, which eventually leads to the burning sensations in your legs and lungs. The effort is a blend of energy sources. This test is really just a substitute for establishing the HR zones. Everyone's 'curve' from the bottom of zone 2 to the max effort is going to look different in terms of both duration of effort and absolute heart rate. A picture would help here. Bottom line...the test in did is no more or less valid than the RPE you are describing. By everything you've understood about zone 2 training, trust the RPE right now. Keep collecting data and do some different assessment tests like Mike R suggested. The test you quoted here is just ONE among dozens of different ways to establish zones in training. Go run a 5k or a 10k, go get a treadmill based Lactate test done, go have your vo2 tested in a lab on a treadmill, go do a 4 x 1600m test. Go do a test where you take your avg HR for the last 20 minutes, subtract 20 (or 30) beats and see how long it takes you to run 2 miles at that HR. Repeat that test after 4 weeks of your 10:xx pace training. Training is testing and testing is training Try the Karvonen formula instead which creates zones based on yoru observed max HR and your resting HR. This actually gives you a full range of HR zones from resting to your actual VO2...it's a very accurate system since it's fundamentally aligned with your natural physiology. You will always be cross referencing and triangulating your training zones, or at least you always SHOULD be doing so. HR is jsut a number. Trust your body's signals more. Thanks a lot for this post as well Suzanne. I just read this over a few times again and its very imformative |
| 2013-05-20 2:34 PM in reply to: AdventureBear |
8763    Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Trust your body's signals more. You are 100% correct on what you wrote above, but the sentence above is the issue for most new people or newbies to endurance sports: they don't know how hard 'hard' is, or how easy, 'easy' is. They need the HRM to tell them to slow down or speed up. Keep in mind, with beginners, this is all new to them and trying to figure out RPE is like me trying to figure out Swahili. It's just not second nature to them as it is to people with a lot of experience. |
| 2013-05-20 3:37 PM in reply to: mikericci |
Extreme Veteran 424 Urbana, MD | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions I will add one more example - If you've not been eating properly, you will get a lower HR for a given pace. My run on Thursday was an easy 4 miles, probably mid-8s. Today's run was also an "easy" run, but I had a bachelor party over the weekend and ate nothing but meat and beer for 24 hours. Today's 5 mile run was mid-9s and I STILL felt I was working hard. I (unfortunately) did not monitor HR on either, but I can tell you when I'm under-fueled my HR is low for a given effort. The more you do it, the better feel you'll get for whether HR, Pace or RPE is the right thing to listen to on any given day. John |
| 2013-05-20 4:57 PM in reply to: mikericci |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Oh, I agree 100% with you Mike. But if the OP were a newbie...the way his specific testing is resulting in zones, it's not reliable either (for him), by listening to his body he can triangulate. |
| 2013-05-22 12:38 PM in reply to: spiderjunior |
| 61 | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions I know with the Garmin, at least, it is possible to wear the thing upside-down and the readings are weird. Maybe the strap is on wrong? Maybe do heart rate reserve instead? I have my zones from a 7 miles run in the desert, found my heart rate "maxed" at 194 and took that as a max. I know it's not my true max, but my Z2 of 144-164 seems to feel good RPE wise. Then again, I used this "max" and then used Don Fink's zones in the Be Iron Fit book. Heartrate zone calculators, there are a lot of different ways to do them. |
| 2013-05-22 2:58 PM in reply to: spiderjunior |
Master 9705 Raleigh, NC area | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions This may be a stupid question but... What was your HR before you started your test (after you put on your strap and turn on the HRM but before you started running)? Did you wet the sensors on the HRM strap before your session? My heart rate is wacky high if I don't wet the strap beforehand. |
| 2013-05-23 9:10 AM in reply to: jmkizer |
Regular 287 Levittown, PA | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Originally posted by jmkizer This may be a stupid question but... What was your HR before you started your test (after you put on your strap and turn on the HRM but before you started running)? Did you wet the sensors on the HRM strap before your session? My heart rate is wacky high if I don't wet the strap beforehand. I have used the HR monitor 5 times now and each morning when I put it on I soak the straps that have the sensors and after putting it on it picks up my rate in about 5 seconds or so. My rate has been almost spot on every single morning. Anywhere from 74 to 78 immediately after putting the sensor on. I am going to gather as much data over the next month or so using the HR monitor, pace and RPE and try to come up with what my correct zone 2 should be. |
| 2013-05-23 9:16 AM in reply to: spiderjunior |
Pro 6582 Melbourne FL Gold member | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Originally posted by spiderjunior And as previously mentioned, find a 5k run race to do. The race pace result can be entered into the McMillan run calculator to provide you with a solid pacing strategy, and the HR average may be used to correlate your field test result.Originally posted by jmkizer I have used the HR monitor 5 times now and each morning when I put it on I soak the straps that have the sensors and after putting it on it picks up my rate in about 5 seconds or so. My rate has been almost spot on every single morning. Anywhere from 74 to 78 immediately after putting the sensor on. I am going to gather as much data over the next month or so using the HR monitor, pace and RPE and try to come up with what my correct zone 2 should be. This may be a stupid question but... What was your HR before you started your test (after you put on your strap and turn on the HRM but before you started running)? Did you wet the sensors on the HRM strap before your session? My heart rate is wacky high if I don't wet the strap beforehand. |
| 2013-05-31 8:53 AM in reply to: 0 |
Regular 287 Levittown, PA | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Another quick question on this. I am still running several times a week and gathering data. Seen my first real difference in stats today though. Up until today the weather has been cool and dry in the morning. I have been averaging about 143 HR for my runs and they have been in the mid 10 minute pace. Today was the first hot day. It was 5am but it was still very muggy. Probably near 80 degrees already but very humid. it was my first time running in heat this season. My heart rate was up in the high 150's and my pace was around 11:30ish. After doing my first run after doing my LT test, I had to run at about an 8:30 pace to get my heart rate into the low 150's. Today it was in the high 150's at an 11:30 pace. Does that sound right? that dramatic of a change just because of the weather? Anybody else use HR training and notice a huge difference in the heat? Edited by spiderjunior 2013-05-31 8:55 AM |
| 2013-05-31 9:52 AM in reply to: spiderjunior |
Regular 172 Arlington, VA | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Yes, weather can absolutely affect your zones. Not just weather, though: Your diet (eat a lot of sugar/carbs, you have a higher HR) Heat/Cold Time of day (related to nutrition, probably). Amount of sleep you got last night Workout you did yesterday Whether you're going to get flu symptoms tomorrow. That said, the core of HR training is engaging your muscles in different ways for different training goals. Even with all these outside factors, your body is still doing the same things at the same HR levels. Trust it. If it means you go slower for a day, let yourself go slower for a day, your body might need it. |
| 2013-05-31 10:59 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 6582 Melbourne FL Gold member | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions spiderjunior, did you retest? Any updates on what you're experiencing? Nevermind, weird thread update issue. Didn't have the latest posts showing until I posted the above... Edited by Donto 2013-05-31 11:01 AM |
| 2013-05-31 11:30 AM in reply to: Donto |
Champion 10018 , Minnesota Bronze member | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions One thing stood out for me when you described your test. You built your pace to a higher pace at the end of the time. I noticed that, in the test instructions you pasted above, there's not a specific protocol for the pace during the test. My coach, who uses the same sort of test, specifically also says (after the warmup instructions): "Run the next 20 minutes as hard as you can sustain. Do not blow yourself in the first 10 minutes - pace it. If mile splits differ more than 20 seconds per mile, test will be inaccurate, discarded & scheduled again." You were supposed to find the sustainably hard pace much sooner, which I think inflated your heart rate since you were able to push much harder at the end. What if you had had to settle with an 8:00-something pace in order to do the whole hard effort without blowing up? I would at least redo the test and try this. For context, here are her instructions for the whole thing: Run 10 minutes very easy. |
| 2013-05-31 2:05 PM in reply to: BikerGrrrl |
| 239 | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions I apologize in advance if this seems like a stupid question, but... Can someone breifly explain the benefits/reasoning behind Zone 2 training? It seems counterintuitive to me. Why would training well below your race pace for long periods be more beneficial than training at a race pace and continually improving on it? I get mixing up the workouts, intervals, etc., and have utilized those tools. However I don't get why frequent slower runs with lower HR makes your race pace any better. If the explanation is too long/detailed for this forum, I will not be offended in any way if someone answers to that effect. Thanks. |
| 2013-05-31 4:04 PM in reply to: dbrook1 |
| 8763 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Science The lay person's answer is this: You need a strong network of capillaries to carry O2 to your muscles and waste away from them. If you don't build up this network (think of an out of shape person trying to run 1 mile very hard), you will be stopped in your tracks, moments after trying to go hard. The only way to create this network is easy aerobic training. Every time you increase HR for too long or going too hard and create lactate that you can't clear, you aren't making those pathways any larger. For most people and I mean 90-95% of people training, if they are consistent with training, all they have to do is go out and train, and they will improve. Not hard, not fast, just train at an easy pace. Once you have maxed out the aerobic engine, then you can add in intervals. The breakdown of aerobic activity to LT type work for running and cycling is about 80/20 -80% aerobic / 20% LT.For swimming, since it's non weight bearing activity, you can swim around 50-65% of the time at a very hard effort. If you want to try to get on a treadmill every day and run at your race pace for intervals or even 3x a week and see what happens, I don't think it would be a good ending. As a matter of fact, I've seen it happen many times. Your body wants and needs the easy aerobic work in order to do the heavy hard work. I hope that helps a bit! |
| 2013-05-31 4:35 PM in reply to: mikericci |
Extreme Veteran 1018 | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Originally posted by mikericci You just killed my excuse not to hammer in the pool. I've been enjoying the low and slow. |
| 2013-05-31 4:45 PM in reply to: mikericci |
| 239 | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Originally posted by mikericci Science The lay person's answer is this: You need a strong network of capillaries to carry O2 to your muscles and waste away from them. If you don't build up this network (think of an out of shape person trying to run 1 mile very hard), you will be stopped in your tracks, moments after trying to go hard. The only way to create this network is easy aerobic training. Every time you increase HR for too long or going too hard and create lactate that you can't clear, you aren't making those pathways any larger. For most people and I mean 90-95% of people training, if they are consistent with training, all they have to do is go out and train, and they will improve. Not hard, not fast, just train at an easy pace. Once you have maxed out the aerobic engine, then you can add in intervals. The breakdown of aerobic activity to LT type work for running and cycling is about 80/20 -80% aerobic / 20% LT.For swimming, since it's non weight bearing activity, you can swim around 50-65% of the time at a very hard effort. If you want to try to get on a treadmill every day and run at your race pace for intervals or even 3x a week and see what happens, I don't think it would be a good ending. As a matter of fact, I've seen it happen many times. Your body wants and needs the easy aerobic work in order to do the heavy hard work. I hope that helps a bit! Thank you. Based on your signature, I would consider you an expert in tri training. I am planning to use this new (to me) zone training and I have no doubt it will work. While I understand what you are saying, it still seems rather counterintuitive--- I just can't wrap my head around it. What do you mean you don't think frequent running at race pace would have a good ending? I'm not doubting you, I'm just wondering what you've seen happen. Again, thanks. |
| 2013-05-31 4:57 PM in reply to: mikericci |
Regular 172 Arlington, VA | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Originally posted by mikericci Science The lay person's answer is this: You need a strong network of capillaries to carry O2 to your muscles and waste away from them. If you don't build up this network (think of an out of shape person trying to run 1 mile very hard), you will be stopped in your tracks, moments after trying to go hard. The only way to create this network is easy aerobic training. Every time you increase HR for too long or going too hard and create lactate that you can't clear, you aren't making those pathways any larger. For most people and I mean 90-95% of people training, if they are consistent with training, all they have to do is go out and train, and they will improve. Not hard, not fast, just train at an easy pace. Once you have maxed out the aerobic engine, then you can add in intervals. The breakdown of aerobic activity to LT type work for running and cycling is about 80/20 -80% aerobic / 20% LT.For swimming, since it's non weight bearing activity, you can swim around 50-65% of the time at a very hard effort. If you want to try to get on a treadmill every day and run at your race pace for intervals or even 3x a week and see what happens, I don't think it would be a good ending. As a matter of fact, I've seen it happen many times. Your body wants and needs the easy aerobic work in order to do the heavy hard work. I hope that helps a bit! I think this is accurate, but incomplete. A major reason many of us train do lots of training in Z2 is to change the way our body's process nutrition. In Zone 2, your muscles are getting all the Oxygen they need, and therefore they are happy to burn stored fat (which requires oxygen to turn into energy). In Zone 5, different fibers of your muscles are used because you are now asking your muscles to exert more energy than they can produce with Oxygen and Fat, simply because there is not enough oxygen getting to them. Z3 and Z4 are combinations of these fiber groups. These fibers are activated by carbohydrates which do not require Oxygen to convert to energy. As an endurance athlete you want to increase your body's ability to convert fat into energy. Even the skinny people out there have thousands and thousands of calories in stored fat. You can only have so many carbs in your system at a time. As a result, if you want to keep going in endurance racing, it is helpful to have your body be adept at converting fat into energy so you can get the most out of those fibers, only tapping the other fibers for that extra kick. If only those Z5 muscles are strong, guess what, you're using them all the time, burning through your carb stores, and reducing your time-to-bonk (running out of energy). To answer your other question about what he meant by "not ending well", I assume he meant that if you go all out all the time, you're probably just going to injure or exhaust yourself, in either case you won't get the quality training you had planned on. |
| 2013-05-31 5:56 PM in reply to: __sugar__ |
| 239 | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions I think this is accurate, but incomplete. A major reason many of us train do lots of training in Z2 is to change the way our body's process nutrition. In Zone 2, your muscles are getting all the Oxygen they need, and therefore they are happy to burn stored fat (which requires oxygen to turn into energy). In Zone 5, different fibers of your muscles are used because you are now asking your muscles to exert more energy than they can produce with Oxygen and Fat, simply because there is not enough oxygen getting to them. Z3 and Z4 are combinations of these fiber groups. These fibers are activated by carbohydrates which do not require Oxygen to convert to energy. As an endurance athlete you want to increase your body's ability to convert fat into energy. Even the skinny people out there have thousands and thousands of calories in stored fat. You can only have so many carbs in your system at a time. As a result, if you want to keep going in endurance racing, it is helpful to have your body be adept at converting fat into energy so you can get the most out of those fibers, only tapping the other fibers for that extra kick. If only those Z5 muscles are strong, guess what, you're using them all the time, burning through your carb stores, and reducing your time-to-bonk (running out of energy). To answer your other question about what he meant by "not ending well", I assume he meant that if you go all out all the time, you're probably just going to injure or exhaust yourself, in either case you won't get the quality training you had planned on. Excellent additional information. Thanks! |
| 2013-06-01 12:35 AM in reply to: spiderjunior |
| 19 | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Here's a podcast where Mark Allen discusses Zone 2 training. http://www.fitfatfast.com/ep-7-grip-trust-heart/ I had my New Leaf test done by the co-host back in early April, as her studio is a few miles from my house. His 180-age rule-of-thumb turned out to be pretty much right on my Zone 2 (180-44-136). My first runs at sub-140 were in the 11:15 min/mile range over a somewhat hilly route that I used to run in the mid 9's, not knowing what I was doing. I felt like I could go forever. However I did have to power walk some of the steeper hills to keep my HR below 140. After a little more than a month of running at this heart rate, I have dropped over 1 min/mile over the same route at the same HR. I'll be going back in the next month or so to do another test to see if my Zone 2 has moved upwards as a result of training in this zone and my modified diet. |
| 2013-06-01 11:22 AM in reply to: __sugar__ |
| 8763 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Right. I think I said 'in lay person's lingo'. Did you miss that part? For most people, they just need to run. Easy and frequently. If they can't do that, the rest isn't going to matter. |
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