Slornow and Wannabefaster's mentor group...Closed (Page 24)
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Stuartap Originally posted by slornow Randy I have been swimming which seems to be going fine with no ill effects. Doc says I can get back on the bike this Friday (10 days post injury) if I stay in the saddle, no standing, but off running for 3-4 weeks. How does that time line line up with what you have experienced? Stuart-the most consistent problem I have had over the past few years has been calf strains....maybe tears. Seems they can pop up anytime. I think you have been careful in increasing your run volume. Hard to say what may have caused it. May have been a combination of things? Give it plenty of time. I have come back too quickly and been back at square one. Stuart-I would say the doctor knows best. I have heard and read of many accounts of calf injuries and the one thing that sticks with me was the following: "when you think the calf is fine to run on give it another week." I think this is good advice when we are self diagnosing and treating but if I were you I would follow the doctor's advice. Hopefully, you will bounce back quickly. sounds like you are doing all the right things. |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Stuartap Originally posted by ligersandtions I don't have one but the J where I work out (and work) has them. After your injury did you start at week 1 with the plan or someplace else? Thanks again, It's all aquajogging until Week 9. Do you have an aquajogging belt? If not, you should get one. Once I started running again, I started with a run/walk plan with aquajogging on alternating days. And by run/walk plan, I mean super short intervals with super short total run duration (think 30 seconds run, 30 seconds walk for a total of 5 minutes of running). It built up over a few weeks, but I didn't do my first continuous run (of 20 minutes) for about three weeks. If I remember correctly, I started with Week 1 to kind of get a feel for how aquajogging would work and if I could handle it mentally, and then I jumped to somewhere in the middle, more along the lines of the time I would have spent running if I hadn't been injured. I never did a truly long aquajog (like a long run), but I kept my mid-week aquajogs fairly similar to what I would have been doing had I been running, and that was more in the 5-8 week range on that plan. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Well there is good news and bad news. The bad news is the pool is closed this week for maintenance. T he good news is that the pool is closed. My first tri of the season is April 9. My tri team is doing a big local 10K as kind of a get together pre season thing. In all the years of running races and triathlon I have never done a stand alone 10K. Plenty at the end of an Olympic race as well as lots of 5K races and a few half marathons. Strange. Can't say I am looking forward to a 10K road race in late March. I had a 25 year PR in a 5K 2 years ago (19:25) and swore that I would never do another running race. I hurt more after running races than I do after triathlons that take much longer. I know the 10K will hurt like hell. |
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Pool's not closed here, but it's been snowing all day - there's at least half a metre out there and its still coming down. Driving home from work today was brutal. So I won't be making the trek into the pool tonight, but I will be getting an upper body workout from shovelling. Wonder if I should add that to my training log ![]() |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Murph333 wow you guys take the tracking of effort to another level. I will try and keep track of my TSS and see when I hit numbers that make me feel like I am burning out. over the weekend kept resting and got back at it. did a FTP test with the new stages PM. was ok, wanted to have a higher number but that's what it is. come Tuesday I am back at it, biked this morning (trainer road Fuji, 10x20 sec sprints) felt pretty good, going to hit the pool on the way home after work. ![]() Sorry for my lack of presence. This is one of the reasons that Randy and I have always done this together. When one of us gets really busy, the other one is usually around. Winter is ski season here in MI and my 13 year old is ski crazy. Took her up North for four consecutive days of winter fun. I managed to run every day except one (logging 23 miles, Friday through today....!). It seems like I may be getting over the hump in the recovery from my knee injury and subsequent surgery. 20 days out from surgery today. I ran a 6:58 mile on Saturday, just to see if I could. I kind of wanted to quote your post because this group has turned out to be pretty darn technical and 'high end'. There are things that Marc thinks about that have never crossed my mind. But my exposure to them in our group is making me smarter (and a little bit intimidated). Like Randy, I use Raceday to track my training. Unlike Randy, I almost never look at my TSS score. I just count on building volume and effort over time. I am sure, and I have said this before about other things, that I am leaving speed on the table through my lack of technical know how but for me, the tech often makes training less enjoyable. I want to train and race and get faster but I just don't have any desire to immerse myself in super high end triathlon knowledge. I'm really putting this out there in case anyone else has been intimidated or scared away by the high level nature of the group. As one of your mentors, and a technophobe, this group is for everyone :-) |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by marcag we can tone down the geekness :-) i embrace the geekiness. Honestly, some of it goes outside my element and that's fine. I know that I simply don't have the time to get to the level some people do, but i still learn lots from being on the periphery and reading the micro level to get a better understanding at the macro level. |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() For all that measure and watch their TSS closely, do you use any other metrics to measure your overall stress outside of training? Nutrition, Myfitnesspal, Sleep, sleep cycle? Write down notes, etc about your soreness levels, energy levels, quality of sleep, work/life stress? RPE? |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I love the geekiness. I'm actually getting motivated to try some of your aero testing based on Nicole's results. I just wanted people to know that they don't need to understand every part of the conversation in order to participate. This is pretty high-end stuff. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by wannabefaster I love the geekiness. I'm actually getting motivated to try some of your aero testing based on Nicole's results. I just wanted people to know that they don't need to understand every part of the conversation in order to participate. This is pretty high-end stuff. The purpose of the mentor groups is supposed to be to help some of the newbies and share info. I agree some of the stuff is a little beyond "beginner" triathlete. That's why sometimes I think we should tone it down. I don't know how to properly balance it. I sincerely hope that the people that don't quite follow at times, but have an interest will ask questions. Even if it's as simple as "how do I gather data to one day analyze it". I hope people that find it too geeky will say "hold pn guys, nerd alert". What I find frustrating is there is no good place to share this type of info. TT is not the place with the people that are there. ST, maybe, but it's not for the faint of heart. FB, IMO is not built for his kind of stuff. The mentor groups seem to be losing their real "raison d'etre" and become an escape from TT. Which is wrong. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by bcagle25 For all that measure and watch their TSS closely, do you use any other metrics to measure your overall stress outside of training? Nutrition, Myfitnesspal, Sleep, sleep cycle? Write down notes, etc about your soreness levels, energy levels, quality of sleep, work/life stress? RPE? I use MFP for calories and overall balancing of food. Especially when trying to lose weight. I use HRV to measure stress. It has a pretty good scoring system for sleep, soreness.....I find it very accurate in saying "there is a problem here". I sleep really well so don't really bother logging it. I do note break out sessions and crappy sessions. I rarely look at individual TSS. I do monitor overall training load however. |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I love the detailed discussions! Some of it is above my head but as has been mentioned by one of our mentors which holds true to me as well as that this sport is a hobby. As such, I pick and chose what I want to learn. Any and all discussion is good for me. While I always want to get faster, I need to remember the primary reason I do this - fun and healthy lifestyle. Another thing I get out of this group is accountability. Sometimes just knowing others are aware of my goals gives me the extra nudge to get up and get training done. Yesterday was a wash. I had activities all day with my bride. I loved it but missed my training. This morning I got up at 5 AM and did my scheduled bike before heading out to work. Felt great! Bike: 70 min total: 10 min warm up then 6 sets of 5 minx240 watts followed by 3 min rest. Then cool down at end. Avg Power 191 NP 212 It's nice seeing my Avg Power creeping up over the winter months. I'm looking forward to my next 20 min power test. Coach wants me to do it when I'm well rested in a few weeks. Have a good day all! Seems like winter is just dragging along.......... |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() The garage in the background is my pain cave There was a path to it with less than 2 inches of snow. There was no snow on that table or chairs Then bam! In about 8 hours, we got this 3000m swim in the morning and 30min run in the snowstorm for me yesterday Edited by marcag 2016-02-17 7:10 AM (IMG_1304.png) Attachments ---------------- IMG_1304.png (3174KB - 2 downloads) |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by bcagle25 For all that measure and watch their TSS closely, do you use any other metrics to measure your overall stress outside of training? Nutrition, Myfitnesspal, Sleep, sleep cycle? Write down notes, etc about your soreness levels, energy levels, quality of sleep, work/life stress? RPE? I use MFP for calories and overall balancing of food. Especially when trying to lose weight. I use HRV to measure stress. It has a pretty good scoring system for sleep, soreness.....I find it very accurate in saying "there is a problem here". I sleep really well so don't really bother logging it. I do note break out sessions and crappy sessions. I rarely look at individual TSS. I do monitor overall training load however. I very much agree with Marc. I think most of the data is complimentary....more of a way to objectively verify or dispel what our "gut" feeling is about how we are doing. I also monitor Heart Rate Variability. Started doing this in early January and mainly because I was no longer using a coach. I have a tendency to think more is better when that can take me down a tough road and be counter productive. The HRV gives me an objective indication of a metric that coincides with my body's ability to handle the training load. If my number is low I need to back off. It allows you to enter factors such as sleep quality, diet, mood etc. but those factors do not factor into the reading. More of just a way to look back and see where you were with those subjective measurements on a given day. I have not been using it very long but can see patterns emerging. I use http://www.myithlete.com/ OK....that is my contribution to the geeking out of the group. Really though, I hope people bring up any subject that interests them. There is no question that is too basic. I feel that these mentor groups are the single best resource on BT. Fortunately, we have some very same folks in those group. All of whom I suspect have made mistakes in their training and racing....I know I have. I'm fine with geekiness but encourage all discussion. Edited by slornow 2016-02-17 7:50 AM |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Until it came up here I didn't even know what TSS was! ![]() I just joined the Masters swim program a few days ago since I can't ride until Friday and run for a few more weeks. This is the first time I have done a swim for five consecutive days in 40 years. So I sow up this morning and the group is half its normal size. Wed is stroke day and apparently a lot of the group are not fans. Now I understand why. Here was the workout this morning: Warm up 500 Freestyle 200 IM 200 IM kick 4 x 400 IM 10 x 100 Freestyle The workout itself is only 3500 yards but it kicked my butt. I can't wait for my two hour Sufferfest class on Friday for a break. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Stuartap 4 x 400 IM Give me 10x4'@105 with 45s rest on the bike before that. Ouch !! |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Posing a question/statement for the group based on some previous conversations. Progression and adaption. Big switch this year and change in a way is repeating the same w/o's week after week in a block. Body adapts to load in about 4-8 weeks until a stimulus needs to be changed. Because of that many of my sessions are identical weekly, I am given ranges and variables, not really focusing on certain numbers or small ranges. Rather go in with what the day presents and how my body feels. For example, I have done the same swim set every Monday for the past 3 weeks. In a conversation yesterday, I was told since the set isn't progressing I am just "beating a dead horse"...couple things to think about 1. You can progress load each week by repeating 90% of the workload identically from the week prior, just changing 1-3 sessions does progress the load/stimulus. 2. You could do the exact same workouts 3 weeks in a row and the stimulus will change, though it would be to external load (fatigue) then internal load in the workout. If you do as well as the week before, or better, you are progressing/adapting. 3. Ranges are targets to hit, not beat, sometimes I think people miss this point. I have done this with myself and a few other athletes. The big change I have noticed is that many people take a more simplified approach to training, focus on the process and not meeting pre-determined numbers each day. They understand their body better, progress a bit quicker, and can manage the internal (training) and external (life) load more appropriately. I know a lot of people in this group like to geek out on data, I am the exact opposite. I use RPE over everything, and use power, HR, pace, etc to accompany data to manage load. For me personally, it excludes a lot of the external noise and makes the process very simple. Hey this w/o was easier then it was 4 weeks ago, I must be getting stronger.... Thoughts???? |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Ben I agree for the most part. I use RPE as my first indicator. I do like to do a FTP on the bike once a quarter as a check in. I log the salient data like miles and time but more for a global look at what I have been doing. Right now I am paying close attention to how I feel before and after a workout while I am adjusting my nutrition. For instance, oatmeal does not sit well with me before a morning workout. Hard lessen to learn knowing I had to repeat it a few times to make sure it was the meal and not something else. I am sure the advanced analytics would tell me something but how I feel, how I am progressing through my plan and how my nutrition is impacting that are what I am focused on as I approach my first IM late this year. |
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New user ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by jimmyb I love the detailed discussions! Some of it is above my head but as has been mentioned by one of our mentors which holds true to me as well as that this sport is a hobby. As such, I pick and chose what I want to learn. Any and all discussion is good for me. While I always want to get faster, I need to remember the primary reason I do this - fun and healthy lifestyle. I pretty much feel the same way. Trying to absorb as much as I can. Right now I'm collecting all the data from my workouts and importing it into Golden Cheetah. All kinds of neat charts and pretty lines that I have no idea the meaning of. Hehe. I'm really trying to bring more structure to my training this year, in the past I've always had good intentions but usually end up winging it as the season goes along. For my marathon last year I followed the Hanson's plan and was happy with the progress I made and the results so I know that type of periodization works for me. I just get lost in the details when I try to juggle the training of three sports. |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by bcagle25 For all that measure and watch their TSS closely, do you use any other metrics to measure your overall stress outside of training? Nutrition, Myfitnesspal, Sleep, sleep cycle? Write down notes, etc about your soreness levels, energy levels, quality of sleep, work/life stress? RPE? I log my nutrition in MFP to keep me honest. I'm not really trying to lose weight, but sometimes I need the guilt of having to log the crap I'm putting in my mouth to keep me from doing it :P I keep track of HRV. For me, I think it tracks my non-training stressors better than it really tracks my training stress. It's nice for it to track my non-training stress because I'm notoriously bad about gauging my stress. I'm the kind of person who will say it's all fine until everything falls apart....and then I'll look back and be appalled at the fact that I didn't pick up on it not being all fine! And after nearly every training session, I do what I refer to as a "brain dump". I write down exactly how I was feeling (sometimes I feel great and I note that....sometimes I feel physically okay, but mentally I'm struggling, so I feel like it was a "bad" session until I look at metrics....sometimes I completely fall apart and explain what was going through my head.....sometimes I hit a rough patch and somehow work through it -- it's really important information for me to know how I managed to work through it, so I can save it in my mind and utilize it again when I need to in the future). This gives me good information in the future, and also shows me a pattern when things start falling apart, which I can often correlate back to HRV and/or TSS. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by wannabefaster I love the geekiness. I'm actually getting motivated to try some of your aero testing based on Nicole's results. I just wanted people to know that they don't need to understand every part of the conversation in order to participate. This is pretty high-end stuff. The purpose of the mentor groups is supposed to be to help some of the newbies and share info. I agree some of the stuff is a little beyond "beginner" triathlete. That's why sometimes I think we should tone it down. I don't know how to properly balance it. I sincerely hope that the people that don't quite follow at times, but have an interest will ask questions. Even if it's as simple as "how do I gather data to one day analyze it". I hope people that find it too geeky will say "hold pn guys, nerd alert". What I find frustrating is there is no good place to share this type of info. TT is not the place with the people that are there. ST, maybe, but it's not for the faint of heart. FB, IMO is not built for his kind of stuff. The mentor groups seem to be losing their real "raison d'etre" and become an escape from TT. Which is wrong. Marc, I want this to be a place you can share and discuss this kind of thing. I am learning a bunch and really appreciate it. I don't want you to be self conscious about having high level conversations here. I am smarter just from following along. And, while I have your attention, I wanted to ask your opinion on Nicole's 155 mm cranks. I am currently on 170 cranks and have been planning on going shorter. At 5' 7" I was going to go all of the way to 160s. Nicole's cranks are a screaming deal but I have to admit to having some concern about going 15 mm shorter all at once. Do you have an opinion about this? The fitter I talked to last week thought it was too much but I think that was at least in part because it was outside of his experience. At 5' 7", the 155s might not be that different than 170s would be for soneone who is 6' 2"? Any thoughts would be welcome. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by wannabefaster I am currently on 170 cranks and have been planning on going shorter. At 5' 7" I was going to go all of the way to 160s. Nicole's cranks are a screaming deal but I have to admit to having some concern about going 15 mm shorter all at once. Do you have an opinion about this? The fitter I talked to last week thought it was too much but I think that was at least in part because it was outside of his experience. At 5' 7", the 155s might not be that different than 170s would be for soneone who is 6' 2"? Any thoughts would be welcome. IMO, there is a much higher probability you will like them than dislike them. If you find yourself having trouble going down in front or feel your thigh is coming too close to your chest, that you have trouble generating power in aero there is a chance they will help. There may be other ways to do it but if it's cheap, it's worth a try IMO Such a big jump, I would bring the seat back as well. Remember, at 6 O'clock, your pedal is now 1.5cm closer to your seat, so seat goes up 1.5cm. But at 12 O"clock, pedal is now 1.5cm closer to BB so 1.5 cm more away from seat. + the 1.5cm from raising the seat, you know how 3cm more up there. At 3 O'clock your pedal is 1.5cm closer to the BB so your knee is now 1.5cm further ahead of the pedal than it use to be. KOPS (knee over pedal spindle) is a metric people ignore on TT bikes, but it's still somewhat relevant. So I would move the seat probably 1cm back and 1.5cm up. By going 1cm back, you also now have more reach so bads may need to come back 1cm, I would measure everything, and even video, with helmet before making any changes |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by bcagle25 Posing a question/statement for the group based on some previous conversations. Progression and adaption. Big switch this year and change in a way is repeating the same w/o's week after week in a block. Body adapts to load in about 4-8 weeks until a stimulus needs to be changed. Because of that many of my sessions are identical weekly, I am given ranges and variables, not really focusing on certain numbers or small ranges. Rather go in with what the day presents and how my body feels. For example, I have done the same swim set every Monday for the past 3 weeks. In a conversation yesterday, I was told since the set isn't progressing I am just "beating a dead horse"...couple things to think about 1. You can progress load each week by repeating 90% of the workload identically from the week prior, just changing 1-3 sessions does progress the load/stimulus. 2. You could do the exact same workouts 3 weeks in a row and the stimulus will change, though it would be to external load (fatigue) then internal load in the workout. If you do as well as the week before, or better, you are progressing/adapting. 3. Ranges are targets to hit, not beat, sometimes I think people miss this point. I have done this with myself and a few other athletes. The big change I have noticed is that many people take a more simplified approach to training, focus on the process and not meeting pre-determined numbers each day. They understand their body better, progress a bit quicker, and can manage the internal (training) and external (life) load more appropriately. I know a lot of people in this group like to geek out on data, I am the exact opposite. I use RPE over everything, and use power, HR, pace, etc to accompany data to manage load. For me personally, it excludes a lot of the external noise and makes the process very simple. Hey this w/o was easier then it was 4 weeks ago, I must be getting stronger.... Thoughts???? I am not sure I am answering the question, but here I go All my blocks are at the most 8 weeks, sometimes as little as 4. I do try to achieve something very specific within a block Workouts are typically a progression of the previous weeks workout. I either increase the interval time, interval load, decrease rest, increase number of reps and increase overall work load (of the intervals). I may adjust one or all of those. But you can very much compare the workout to the previous week's workout Sometimes I am doing 2 progressions during a block I monitor performance metrics such as best 30min power or best 60min NP. But also for sub maximal efforts I monitor other metrics to see if aerobic improvement are being made even when running say in Z2 Here is a chart since Nov 2 weeks prep 8 weeks in the 2nd phase 5 weeks in the 3rd phase Just starting the 4th phase You see more VO2max work (red bar) in P2 More threshold in P3 Within blocks, time in targetted zone is increasing, P2 was more VO2 max work. P3 was a little more to the right of the curve.... Performance, such as 30min power (green) or 20min power(yellow) is increasing Confidence to hit key workouts is increased since you did 'almost that' the previous week. If a little more "breaks" you : red flag. The yellow bars are time spent doing some strengh/muscular endurance work so you see a progression in time. That's what I meant by a secondary progression, that may actually overlap more than 1 phase. FTP tests are done after each phase to confirm progress Edited by marcag 2016-02-17 3:30 PM (Screenshot 2016-02-17 16.28.45.png) Attachments ---------------- Screenshot 2016-02-17 16.28.45.png (83KB - 1 downloads) |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I wish we would get some more snow here in Michigan. If it is going to be winter I want there to be lots of white stuff. This winter has been a bust as far as snow goes. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by wannabefaster I am currently on 170 cranks and have been planning on going shorter. At 5' 7" I was going to go all of the way to 160s. Nicole's cranks are a screaming deal but I have to admit to having some concern about going 15 mm shorter all at once. Do you have an opinion about this? The fitter I talked to last week thought it was too much but I think that was at least in part because it was outside of his experience. At 5' 7", the 155s might not be that different than 170s would be for soneone who is 6' 2"? Any thoughts would be welcome. IMO, there is a much higher probability you will like them than dislike them. If you find yourself having trouble going down in front or feel your thigh is coming too close to your chest, that you have trouble generating power in aero there is a chance they will help. There may be other ways to do it but if it's cheap, it's worth a try IMO Such a big jump, I would bring the seat back as well. Remember, at 6 O'clock, your pedal is now 1.5cm closer to your seat, so seat goes up 1.5cm. But at 12 O"clock, pedal is now 1.5cm closer to BB so 1.5 cm more away from seat. + the 1.5cm from raising the seat, you know how 3cm more up there. At 3 O'clock your pedal is 1.5cm closer to the BB so your knee is now 1.5cm further ahead of the pedal than it use to be. KOPS (knee over pedal spindle) is a metric people ignore on TT bikes, but it's still somewhat relevant. So I would move the seat probably 1cm back and 1.5cm up. By going 1cm back, you also now have more reach so bads may need to come back 1cm, I would measure everything, and even video, with helmet before making any changes Ok. Thanks for the advice. I am going to send Nicole a message and give this a try. Should be interesting. One of the things that the fitter thought last week was that I might be a bit too stretched out. He talked about moving my cockpit back a couple cms, so I might just raise the seat 1.5 cm and see how that feels. I will definitely take measurements and pictures before moving anything. |
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