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2010-08-09 12:06 PM
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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!

Well, I had a fun race on Sunday.  The event itself was fantastic - by far the best put on sprint I have been to!  My results were okay, I would say that I got what I deserved   Anyway, it was hot and humid and sunny which got to be a little brutal on the run for me!  Had a great time seeing and hanging out with all the BT'ers though.  Thanks to fatty for a place to crash!  I will work on my RR and post it this evening (after my run )



2010-08-09 12:33 PM
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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!
ashort33 - 2010-08-09 1:06 PM

Well, I had a fun race on Sunday.  The event itself was fantastic - by far the best put on sprint I have been to!  My results were okay, I would say that I got what I deserved   Anyway, it was hot and humid and sunny which got to be a little brutal on the run for me!  Had a great time seeing and hanging out with all the BT'ers though.  Thanks to fatty for a place to crash!  I will work on my RR and post it this evening (after my run )



Great to hear Andy, can't wait to read the RR.

2010-08-09 1:05 PM
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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!
badgerintx - 2010-08-09 11:08 AM
dalessit - 2010-08-09 10:09 AM

Avg Watts = 185, weight  = 71.8 KG = 2.6 W/Kg

Not too impressive, but with the long downhills where I knew I had lots of ups to do I didn't push it and watts would have been pretty close to 0, so that might be a reason why.


Wattage is what wattage is....it does not lie and nothing to ever be cylinical (its a training / racing tool) about or I may have to sick Suzy on you!  

But how does that compare to your average "Hour" ride on Wattage when you are race simulating?  


What I am chasing is an answer to the question of if your bike split is killing your run at the mile / min pace you want to be during the race.  I have found that be a big issue with me at the Oly distance, You figure you are only gonna be on the bike for an hour so lets really hammer and pass some people, etc.  Not an issue during sprints because of the distances involved.  Not an issue at HIM because you conserve more on the bike knowing you have a 1/2 to run.

Thoughts??    Undecided


experience.  course, conditions, nutrition, training leading up to the race.  experience.   i'll look later, starting new job today so time is limited, but jordan rapp wrote something up and posted on st some time ago about ftp %'s at different distances.  applicable to power users but iteresting none the less to those of us that don't. 

and abou that in red up there, lemme know how that non-issue works out for you after your first HIM.    ;-)

in my opinion, now that i think about it i may go back sometime and actually look at the numbers on here and st, speaking soley on ratio's of racers asking per distance, i 'd be willing to bet a beer that run pace off the bike is probably asked/talked about more at the half distance than sprint and oly combined.

 
2010-08-09 1:24 PM
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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!
jvanis - 2010-08-09 11:14 AM
badgerintx - 2010-08-09 11:08 AM
dalessit - 2010-08-09 10:09 AM

Avg Watts = 185, weight  = 71.8 KG = 2.6 W/Kg

Not too impressive, but with the long downhills where I knew I had lots of ups to do I didn't push it and watts would have been pretty close to 0, so that might be a reason why.


Wattage is what wattage is....it does not lie and nothing to ever be cylinical (its a training / racing tool) about or I may have to sick Suzy on you!  

But how does that compare to your average "Hour" ride on Wattage when you are race simulating?  


What I am chasing is an answer to the question of if your bike split is killing your run at the mile / min pace you want to be during the race.  I have found that be a big issue with me at the Oly distance, You figure you are only gonna be on the bike for an hour so lets really hammer and pass some people, etc.  Not an issue during sprints because of the distances involved.  Not an issue at HIM because you conserve more on the bike knowing you have a 1/2 to run.

Thoughts??    Undecided


Typically they say hammer the bike as you will make more time up there than what it does to your run if you are slower.  I am sure there is a limit, but I would guess its higher than I can make myself push. Who knows though?


other than a sprint, i'm not really sure i agree with "they".

some quick numbers at an oly distance 18 and 21 mph. difference is 11:xx minutes.  you blow early in the run i think it'd be pretty easy to find 11 minutes.  and i think 3 mph is very genreous to a normal 18 mph rider dropping the hammer.  but could be wrong... 

i'm fairly certain dropping the hammer on the long course is a recipe for a very long walk.  

do you mind me asking, who is "they"?  just curious.   
2010-08-09 2:46 PM
in reply to: #2771574

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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!
I like the Endurance Nation view on this issue. Do not look at it as 3 separate events. It is one long event with three parts. Your object is to move the wall (bonking or whatever you want to call it) as close to the end as possible. Ideal is at the finish line. Looked at this way it is truly individual to each racer. Anyone can ride too hard to a point where they destroy their run.

Using Watts in training is a great way to learn your individual sustainable output. Working with a power meter during bricks can help you determine just how much you can realistically push the bike and still maintain a quality run.

It also can help you adjust for different weather conditions, most notably heat.

Having said that, some people could potentially ride a 90+% on the bike and not affect their run time significantly. Others would create a disasterous situation where the "run" becomes a "walk."
Figure out what works for you in your present state of fitness and then use that as a guide when racing.
2010-08-09 2:58 PM
in reply to: #3032445

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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!
fattyfatfat - 2010-08-09 1:24 PM
jvanis - 2010-08-09 11:14 AM
badgerintx - 2010-08-09 11:08 AM
dalessit - 2010-08-09 10:09 AM

Avg Watts = 185, weight  = 71.8 KG = 2.6 W/Kg

Not too impressive, but with the long downhills where I knew I had lots of ups to do I didn't push it and watts would have been pretty close to 0, so that might be a reason why.


Wattage is what wattage is....it does not lie and nothing to ever be cylinical (its a training / racing tool) about or I may have to sick Suzy on you!  

But how does that compare to your average "Hour" ride on Wattage when you are race simulating?  


What I am chasing is an answer to the question of if your bike split is killing your run at the mile / min pace you want to be during the race.  I have found that be a big issue with me at the Oly distance, You figure you are only gonna be on the bike for an hour so lets really hammer and pass some people, etc.  Not an issue during sprints because of the distances involved.  Not an issue at HIM because you conserve more on the bike knowing you have a 1/2 to run.

Thoughts??    Undecided


Typically they say hammer the bike as you will make more time up there than what it does to your run if you are slower.  I am sure there is a limit, but I would guess its higher than I can make myself push. Who knows though?


other than a sprint, i'm not really sure i agree with "they".

some quick numbers at an oly distance 18 and 21 mph. difference is 11:xx minutes.  you blow early in the run i think it'd be pretty easy to find 11 minutes.  and i think 3 mph is very genreous to a normal 18 mph rider dropping the hammer.  but could be wrong... 

i'm fairly certain dropping the hammer on the long course is a recipe for a very long walk.  

do you mind me asking, who is "they"?  just curious.   


I just read an article/study not too long ago but do not remember if they specifically called out a distance, I would guess it makes the most sense on a sprint.  I completely agree HIM or greater requires significant pacing effort and it would be less advantageous, and could see that also being true for Olympic.  From the distance/pace that I have seen in the past an Oly is typically 90-95% of FTP if I remember correctly. 

I will see if I can find what I read or not.


2010-08-09 3:00 PM
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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!
Well that was easy:  Sprint distance.

Linky

Edited by jvanis 2010-08-09 3:00 PM
2010-08-09 3:24 PM
in reply to: #2771574

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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!
Okay Augusta people,  I am in the middle of reservation hell for my race calendar for the rest of the year so why not throw a little more fuel to the fire.  Do all the Augusta racers and race supporters want to get together for dinner on Saturday?   I thought with potentially 3000 racers + families coming into town we might want to make reservations early.   Let me know who is interested and PM me your personal email address so we can take this offline.  I'll be happy to make the reservation for the group.  Anyone have any good recommendations?  I'm assuming we want pasta correct?
2010-08-09 6:14 PM
in reply to: #3032406

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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!
fattyfatfat - 2010-08-09 2:05 PM
badgerintx - 2010-08-09 11:08 AM
dalessit - 2010-08-09 10:09 AM

Avg Watts = 185, weight  = 71.8 KG = 2.6 W/Kg

Not too impressive, but with the long downhills where I knew I had lots of ups to do I didn't push it and watts would have been pretty close to 0, so that might be a reason why.


Wattage is what wattage is....it does not lie and nothing to ever be cylinical (its a training / racing tool) about or I may have to sick Suzy on you!  

But how does that compare to your average "Hour" ride on Wattage when you are race simulating?  


What I am chasing is an answer to the question of if your bike split is killing your run at the mile / min pace you want to be during the race.  I have found that be a big issue with me at the Oly distance, You figure you are only gonna be on the bike for an hour so lets really hammer and pass some people, etc.  Not an issue during sprints because of the distances involved.  Not an issue at HIM because you conserve more on the bike knowing you have a 1/2 to run.

Thoughts??    Undecided


experience.  course, conditions, nutrition, training leading up to the race.  experience.   i'll look later, starting new job today so time is limited, but jordan rapp wrote something up and posted on st some time ago about ftp %'s at different distances.  applicable to power users but iteresting none the less to those of us that don't. 

and abou that in red up there, lemme know how that non-issue works out for you after your first HIM.    ;-)

in my opinion, now that i think about it i may go back sometime and actually look at the numbers on here and st, speaking soley on ratio's of racers asking per distance, i 'd be willing to bet a beer that run pace off the bike is probably asked/talked about more at the half distance than sprint and oly combined.

 


I think it's all about perspective.  I agree for me that pacing wasn't as big of an issue on the bike in the HIM vs. an Oly since I have done 5 oly's and only 1 HIM.

In a sprint, I don't care about wattage on the bike, I go pretty close to as hard as I can, same with the run.

In a HIM, I have very careful pacing for 56 miles, attempting to stay right in my wattage zone, knowing I have 13.1 miles to run.  It was actually easier, ride this wattage, no more, no less.

An Oly is somewhere in between, for me a swim is a swim... unless it's a 300M pool swim I have the exact same pace.

24 miles on the bike (for me) isn't very long and neither is a 10k, I am getting to the point where I feel I can push those zones a bit higher to do that race, but still trying to figure out how high I can go and still have enough pop left in my legs to run a fast 10k.

Haven't done an IM and probably never will, so I don't know if I had done 5 IM's if I would look at HIM's the same way I currently look at Oly's.

Not sure if this is making sense, running in and out to the grill, right now so typing between pauses but does that make sense?
 
2010-08-09 6:15 PM
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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!
DougRob - 2010-08-08 9:48 PM FYI: Steve's Wife Kim has gone into Labor!!


I can't seem to find the website with the updated splits on this race? 

Any updates anybody?   To cool!  Laughing
2010-08-09 6:19 PM
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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!
DougRob - 2010-08-09 2:46 PM I like the Endurance Nation view on this issue. Do not look at it as 3 separate events. It is one long event with three parts. Your object is to move the wall (bonking or whatever you want to call it) as close to the end as possible. Ideal is at the finish line. Looked at this way it is truly individual to each racer. Anyone can ride too hard to a point where they destroy their run.

Using Watts in training is a great way to learn your individual sustainable output. Working with a power meter during bricks can help you determine just how much you can realistically push the bike and still maintain a quality run.

It also can help you adjust for different weather conditions, most notably heat.

Having said that, some people could potentially ride a 90+% on the bike and not affect their run time significantly. Others would create a disasterous situation where the "run" becomes a "walk."
Figure out what works for you in your present state of fitness and then use that as a guide when racing.


I agree with Doug on EN's viewpoint.  Seems their favorite mantra is "there is no such thing as great bike split but a terrible run. Only a bike that was not managed well!"   In Tony's case though, I think the terrain plays a big role in the average.  Someone like me has to manage those Watts up the hills so I don't blow up completely, but then my Watts are in the tank on the way down even if I'm pushing hard.  Be curious to see if Ryan has the same experience?  where is he anyway????? oh yeah, probably making sure Birdy doesn't faint!


2010-08-09 7:31 PM
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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!
jvanis - 2010-08-09 3:00 PM Well that was easy:  Sprint distance.

Linky


thanks.  got it when posted last month.  and most important to me, as you might have picked on on in some of my posts, it's a journal article (peer reviewed), not a magazine article.  i recall reading it and asking what about then swim!?!   then the author chimed in on the thread with this.

Another study from our lab suggested that swimming close to your time trial effort may be detrimental to your overall triathlon performance, so could be worth holding back a bit in the swim!!

2010-08-09 7:39 PM
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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!
fattyfatfat - 2010-08-09 7:31 PM
jvanis - 2010-08-09 3:00 PM Well that was easy:  Sprint distance.

Linky


thanks.  got it when posted last month.  and most important to me, as you might have picked on on in some of my posts, it's a journal article (peer reviewed), not a magazine article.  i recall reading it and asking what about then swim!?!   then the author chimed in on the thread with this.

Another study from our lab suggested that swimming close to your time trial effort may be detrimental to your overall triathlon performance, so could be worth holding back a bit in the swim!!



True true, cant believe everything you read, always nice to see another perspective I guess. 
2010-08-09 8:13 PM
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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!
badgerintx - 2010-08-09 7:15 PM
DougRob - 2010-08-08 9:48 PM FYI: Steve's Wife Kim has gone into Labor!!


I can't seem to find the website with the updated splits on this race? 

Any updates anybody?   To cool!  Laughing


Looks like they had a girl.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1433277872

CONGRATULATIONS!

Edited by dalessit 2010-08-09 8:14 PM
2010-08-09 8:15 PM
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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!
fattyfatfat - 2010-08-09 5:31 PM
jvanis - 2010-08-09 3:00 PM Well that was easy:  Sprint distance.

Linky


thanks.  got it when posted last month.  and most important to me, as you might have picked on on in some of my posts, it's a journal article (peer reviewed), not a magazine article.  i recall reading it and asking what about then swim!?!   then the author chimed in on the thread with this.

Another study from our lab suggested that swimming close to your time trial effort may be detrimental to your overall triathlon performance, so could be worth holding back a bit in the swim!!



Aha!  I knew someone would find an article that validates my approach to the swim!  

This whole power discussion is very interesting, as I got my Quarq in late May.  When I raced my Oly, I used it only for data, and gave a really hard effort (not like a TT, but more like a 9/10 RPE on the bike and the numbers subsequently showed that I was racing at about 93% of my FTP (164/176) --20.5 mph, and then had what I would consider a good run, but not a fabulous run...51:xx on a hot (for me-85-90F) hilly course.  And on my HIM, I averaged 80% of FTP (140/176) and had an average run on a hot (for me 80-85F), rolling course--1:57 or 8:57/mile.  (stand alone best hm on a much flatter course in cool weather 1:36)

Suzy and I talked about that article, and I had read that article prior to my HIM, as I really wanted to have a good run off the bike this year at Vineman, last year I really faded.  Coach had me keep power between 80-85%, and I kept it at 80% being the cautious person that I am.  I actually felt quite good coming off of the bike, but did have some issues upon taking that first gel 20 minutes into the run.  And tried to adjust accordingly, but had some further issues running in that heat.  And if I'm being honest with myself, my legs wanted to run faster, but my foot was hurting, stomach felt icky, and my mind was telling me it was okay to slow down.

I think what I learned is that you can do everything right on the bike regarding power and nutrition, but once the run comes, there are some factors that are hard to control, some of them you can practice like heck during your bricks, but when you factor in weather and hills that keep coming, a lack of mental toughness (I'm working on it!!!), it can change the outcome that I expect based on my current abilities.  I do learn something from every race.  Whether I always apply it to the next race, that's a tough call, but hey John, I decreased my T1 and T2 times from my March HIM!

Triathlon keeps me coming back for more, that's for sure.
 
2010-08-09 8:36 PM
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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!
CONGRATS MAN!!!  AWESOME FREAKIN' NEWS!!!!

poopy diapers!!!!  hope kim is well! 


2010-08-09 8:45 PM
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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!
fattyfatfat - 2010-08-09 9:36 PM CONGRATS MAN!!!  AWESOME FREAKIN' NEWS!!!!

poopy diapers!!!!  hope kim is well! 


Yeah those first few are extra, nasty...
2010-08-09 9:18 PM
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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!
CONGRATS!!!    Hope Mom, Dad and baby are all doing well!!!
2010-08-09 9:20 PM
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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!
just felt the earth..... move.....under my feet.......   Don't you all wish you lived in California?!?
2010-08-09 9:32 PM
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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!
velcromom - 2010-08-09 7:20 PMjust felt the earth..... move.....under my feet.......   Don't you all wish you lived in California?!?
You are seriously in a singing mood tonight!!!I didn't feel it! Darn!
2010-08-09 10:37 PM
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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!
kt65 - 2010-08-09 7:32 PM
velcromom - 2010-08-09 7:20 PMjust felt the earth..... move.....under my feet.......   Don't you all wish you lived in California?!?
You are seriously in a singing mood tonight!!!I didn't feel it! Darn!


yup.  good thing nobody's home!  It wasn't a big quake, and it was centered 5-10 miles south of me, so I'm not surprised you didn't feel it.  No damage.


2010-08-10 6:42 AM
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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!
Congrats Steve and Kim!
2010-08-10 7:00 AM
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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!

For those of us with kids, check this out.

 40   1/1      223 Veronica Tis            10 Catonsville     MD   33   41:26    3:40   42 2:02:52  11.6    1:23   40 1:23:12 13:24 4:12:31.5

Yep, she's 10 and finished the race Sam and I did this weekend, which was the hilliest I have done so far.

She did race with her dad, she went with the 40+ guys on the swim at the back with dad.

amazing.

2010-08-10 7:22 AM
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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!
That weekend went to fast. On day 2 of the CTS training plan I found for the bike. Finally got back to the pool yesterday. It was closed down for a week for this festival that happens once a year. Didnt make it that far, felt a little rusty and the water was ice cold. Anyone have a tactful way to tell people that you are there for business and not to chat?
2010-08-10 7:53 AM
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Subject: RE: swbkrun Mentor Group- CLOSED FOR BUSINESS!!!
Congrats on your new baby Steve and Kim!
: )
Linda
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