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2013-01-07 8:53 AM
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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

So after being down a few days with a fever (spiked to 102.5F, gross) and being depressed, I seem to be in the clear (well, I'm still down but at least posting and trying to think of people and things other than my own glumness). Took it easy with a test swim; everything's fine but I'm holding off on the cycling and running for another day.

WU:
200 swim
200 pull w/paddles
150 kick fly/bk/br

MS:
- during free following stroke, mindfully integrate aspect of stroke (e.g. pull re. fly/br, rotation/pulling w/body re. bk)
- during free following pull, mindfully swim as if paddles were still on
4x150 (50 IM stroke, 100 free)
4x125 (25 IM stroke, 100 free)
150 pull w/paddles
3x100 free
150 pull w/paddles
3x100 free
6x75 2x(25 fly/bk/br, 50 free)

CD: 100 pull, 100 free



2013-01-07 8:57 AM
in reply to: #4565668

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
bzgl40 - 2013-01-07 10:51 PM
axteraa - 2013-01-07 7:49 AM

Umm, ouch???

The cause has been diagnosed as a tight Soleus so I've been doing lots of stretching of that and it seems to be helping.

Try some foam rolling as well.  I get a really tight Soleus and honestly ART or a good massage will fix you up in a jiff. 

Yes, have someone poke you in the soleus. Laughing

Genuinely curious--who did the diagnosis, and do you have any pain/tightness behind the knee or down the Achilles as well?

2013-01-07 9:01 AM
in reply to: #4564940

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
marcag - 2013-01-06 6:09 PM
ligersandtions - 2013-01-06 4:46 PM

Long-winded question for you cycling gurus:

So I've been working through Jorge's program on TrainerRoad (it's the seven week version....seems somewhat different than the one he has posted on BT).  I did the 8 minute FTP test for my first ride and based my following rides on that.  I re-tested today and made very little improvement (3W).  I'm feeling pretty disappointed that I didn't see any real results from this, but I guess I don't know if a) I'm just being hard on myself, b) if maybe the TR program isn't as good at the BT one, or c) if seven weeks is just not enough to see significant improvements.

I'm not sure how accurate TR's virtual power is to what my actual power would be (also, I'm somewhat convinced that the power I see on the trainer is less than what I'd see on the street as a 15mph average on the trainer feels like it's kicking my , but 20mph average on the street feels okay....).

Anyways, enough rambling from me -- just curious what others' thoughts are.  Thanks!

Nicole

Couple of things.

Unless you are closely controlling the tension of your trainer and the pressure of your tire, there will be slight differences in power. This could account for some of it.

Some would argue that an 8min test is not accurate enough to establish an FTP. Jorge use to recommend a 5 and 20min test to better estimate.

It is very possible your ability to generate short power has not improved but your ability to sustain power has. The test you did will not show the later. The later is the one that really counts.

You could have had an off day when you tested today. Maybe you left some in the tank. Maybe you have accumulated fatigue.

If you did the program and you felt some of those workouts were tough, chances are you did improve.

 

To piggyback off Marc's comment, an 8min power test to determine your CP or FTP is much too short.

2013-01-07 9:19 AM
in reply to: #4565674

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
TriAya - 2013-01-07 10:57 AM 

Yes, have someone poke you in the soleus. Laughing

Genuinely curious--who did the diagnosis, and do you have any pain/tightness behind the knee or down the Achilles as well?

The initial diagnosis was made by Dr Google aided by my wife.  After that, I was in to see my Osteopath and she also said shin splints (without me mentioning it).  She worked on my leg for about 45 mins and said it seemed to be the Soleus.  Initially she suspected Tib anterior as well but after working on it, it seemed fine.

Absolutely no pain or tightness behind the knee or in the Achilles area - it's very localized to a small area along the inside of the leg and doesn't hurt at all when I run - I'm just aware of it.  It is occasionally tender to touch in that area afterwards.

2013-01-07 9:23 AM
in reply to: #4565445

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

Fred - what makes you think the trainer tire is the issue?  I ran into some flats on the trainer and couldn't figure it out, and eventually put it down to a few bad tubes.  Haven't had any issues in a while (knock on wood), and the tire has thousands of km on it.

Goes without saying, but also check the rim, tape, and inside of the tire to make sure everything is clear.

2013-01-07 9:33 AM
in reply to: #4565687

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
GoFaster - 2013-01-07 7:01 AM
marcag - 2013-01-06 6:09 PM
ligersandtions - 2013-01-06 4:46 PM

Long-winded question for you cycling gurus:

So I've been working through Jorge's program on TrainerRoad (it's the seven week version....seems somewhat different than the one he has posted on BT).  I did the 8 minute FTP test for my first ride and based my following rides on that.  I re-tested today and made very little improvement (3W).  I'm feeling pretty disappointed that I didn't see any real results from this, but I guess I don't know if a) I'm just being hard on myself, b) if maybe the TR program isn't as good at the BT one, or c) if seven weeks is just not enough to see significant improvements.

I'm not sure how accurate TR's virtual power is to what my actual power would be (also, I'm somewhat convinced that the power I see on the trainer is less than what I'd see on the street as a 15mph average on the trainer feels like it's kicking my , but 20mph average on the street feels okay....).

Anyways, enough rambling from me -- just curious what others' thoughts are.  Thanks!

Nicole

Couple of things.

Unless you are closely controlling the tension of your trainer and the pressure of your tire, there will be slight differences in power. This could account for some of it.

Some would argue that an 8min test is not accurate enough to establish an FTP. Jorge use to recommend a 5 and 20min test to better estimate.

It is very possible your ability to generate short power has not improved but your ability to sustain power has. The test you did will not show the later. The later is the one that really counts.

You could have had an off day when you tested today. Maybe you left some in the tank. Maybe you have accumulated fatigue.

If you did the program and you felt some of those workouts were tough, chances are you did improve.

 

To piggyback off Marc's comment, an 8min power test to determine your CP or FTP is much too short.

Thanks for the responses.  I think I'll leave the FTP where it's at and give the seven week plan another go....and then follow it up with a 20 minute test to see where I'm at.  Absolutely none of the rides have been easy (one particular ride that's done twice in the plan kicked my butt badly both times!).

Honestly, I'm kind of scared of the 20 minute test!  I did it once (on a really hot/humid day, no fans) and felt like death....but I'm pretty sure that's what you're supposed to feel like by the end, right?



2013-01-07 9:35 AM
in reply to: #4565782

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
ligersandtions - 2013-01-07 11:33 AM 

Thanks for the responses.  I think I'll leave the FTP where it's at and give the seven week plan another go....and then follow it up with a 20 minute test to see where I'm at.  Absolutely none of the rides have been easy (one particular ride that's done twice in the plan kicked my butt badly both times!).

Honestly, I'm kind of scared of the 20 minute test!  I did it once (on a really hot/humid day, no fans) and felt like death....but I'm pretty sure that's what you're supposed to feel like by the end, right?

You are supposed to feel like that at about the 14 minute mark and then try not to actually die for the last 6.  Laughing

2013-01-07 9:36 AM
in reply to: #4565669

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Yanti - glad you are on the mend. Don't you have an IM you need to be cramming for?
2013-01-07 9:40 AM
in reply to: #4565790

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

TankBoy - 2013-01-07 11:36 PM Yanti - glad you are on the mend. Don't you have yet another IM you need to be cramming for?

Heh. Thanks. And yes.

It's gonna be a little less cram, a lot more action this time. I hope! That's the plan, anyway.

2013-01-07 9:42 AM
in reply to: #4565805

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
TriAya - 2013-01-07 11:40 AM

TankBoy - 2013-01-07 11:36 PM Yanti - glad you are on the mend. Don't you have yet another IM you need to be cramming for?

Heh. Thanks. And yes.

It's gonna be a little less cram, a lot more action this time. I hope! That's the plan, anyway.

What did you decide on acclimatization time and gear to wear during the swim to avoid the temperature issues you have had?

2013-01-07 9:47 AM
in reply to: #4565452

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
bdesotell - 2013-01-07 6:09 AMTo make your log semi private, go to settings at the top, then training log settings.  From there you'll see the privacy options in the dropdown for Training Log Privacy.


- Brian
 

 

Thanks for posting this. I need to double check my list to make sure I have everyone but have noticed a few members have their logs private.

 

January is going well so far the running is OK and I have started cycling again even if it is indoors.  We have a cycling studio in our area full of computrainers and monitors. I had the opportunity to ride the IMAZ course this weekend which was GREAT!  I had to bail before I completed the first loop because of time restraint but really enjoyed my 1:50 on the compu trainer.

I did realize the other day my half marathon is 3 weeks sooner than I thought.  I have been neglecting my long run but need to make sure I get it in the next several weeks.

In wonderful news our oldest comes home today!  Cory moved to Arizona this past summer and we miss him VERY much.  He gets in today and leaves Friday, school for him starts next Monday.  It will be nice having our boy home this week.  His sisters are over the moon!

 



2013-01-07 9:58 AM
in reply to: #4565445

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Yeah, you are killing the swim this month Fred. I will be curious to see what you think about your run/bike fitness afterward. Last summer when I had to lay off running for so long I subbed in walks of the same time of every run I would have done and a lot harder/longer swim sets. I actually found the added LT sets on the swim to help my overall fitness - didn't really experience any falloff on my run. It is interesting in the IMLP group everyone is doing the typical "swim is such a short overall part of IM and an increase in 5~10 minutes on the swim is insignificant in IM so I am not going to focus too much on the swim and just get through it" talk. In my experience anyway this is a really, really bad strategy, especially for us older folks. I have found the swim to be such a great way to build real cardiovascular fitness without the impact of running or even hard cycling. Plus, we just cannot underestimate the importance of coming out of the water at IM feeling fresh and relaxed. Ah, well.
2013-01-07 10:00 AM
in reply to: #4565814

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
axteraa - 2013-01-07 11:42 PM
TriAya - 2013-01-07 11:40 AM

TankBoy - 2013-01-07 11:36 PM Yanti - glad you are on the mend. Don't you have yet another IM you need to be cramming for?

Heh. Thanks. And yes.

It's gonna be a little less cram, a lot more action this time. I hope! That's the plan, anyway.

What did you decide on acclimatization time and gear to wear during the swim to avoid the temperature issues you have had?

OTAY ... here's my super-duper acclimatization, gear, and race execution plan. Fire away. I need all the help I can get!

I love you guys. First, I'm putting down the Vegemite sandwich and bowl of Nutri-Grain. (not kidding)

- currently taking gluc/chon/MSM (have been) and it seems to help the joints (arthritis SUCKS WORSE in cold)
- and also really beefing up on my heme iron w/Vit C sources w/o caffeine, and adding B5 (likely to help can't hurt)
- rainy season here, it's "cold" ish and I'm living indoors with AC and fans on full blast, taking cold showers (mental training anyway)
- Gonna make several excursions to the mountain lakes here (truly cold by anyone's standards) to mountain-bike, test out gear, and ... brrr ... swim. Have already tested out some gear running in pelting tropical rain w/gale force winds, not kidding--needed to exit stage left to avoid all the crap flying around in the air and lost my hat, but a great run otherwise
- Just into Taupo the standard 2 days before race. Will get in the water 2-3x.
- I have waterproof but thin chemical warmers to put under my wetsuit and outside a rasher. As long as the thickness nowhere is more than 5mm, and it isn't, that's A-okay. Gonna stay super bundled up drinking hot liquid (but not caffeine until after swim) until just before race start. Against some popular wisdom but according to my instinct, I'm not going to get in the water to warm up. I'll do the arm-swings and dry-land swimming motions.
- Head is going to be Emilio's swim cap sandwich & earplugs (dry hair, latex cap, neoprene cap, race cap)
- Full change in T1. Everything that goes on is dry. It may not stay that way, but a lot of it is wool and I have a weatherproof outer shell to put on over: sports bra, thermal underwear, wool base layer, shortsleeve cycle jersey (warmers in pockets), neck warmer thingy, shell, warming skullcap/do-rag, aero helmet. Full-length cycling tights; knee-high wool socks, weatherproof shoe covers. Full gloves with handwarmers.
- Depending on how wet I get during the bike, everything may get changed in T2 as well and new warmers (although if it's pelting rain, doesn't matter, just swap out to winter wool running tights, another pair of wool socks, etc.) I'll run in my trail shoes because they run great, I train in them a lot, and they're very light but great in slippery conditions and excellent moisture management. I dumped soup on them the other day, no problem.

Am I missing anything? Oh, that stay healthy and train part? Dammit, gets me every time.

2013-01-07 10:05 AM
in reply to: #4565868

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
oh, and sorry Fred, I got sidetracked and didn't even answer your question. I started my LT build this weekend. Going to be lots of riding in the mountains for me through the winter, I think. Today is a recovery day (a nice little walk with yoga in just a bit), tomorrow is an outdoor climbing FTP test in the morning and I start back to masters practice in the afternoon. I have a running VO2 max test scheduled for Friday. I am starting this LT block about a month earlier than I normally would - it will run through April. Trying to see what kind of speed I can get back after 2 years of IM Training, targeting Rev 3 Knoxville OLY the first week of May. I will keep doing Pilates a couple of times a week and add in Yoga when I can - all focused on core/hip strength for injury prevention. Hope to get swim back up to 12~15k yards per week over the next couple (3x a week) then add a 4th swim in March when we can back in OW (wetsuit). Run is in maintenance mode for a bit.

Just registered for "America's Most Beautiful Bike Ride" around Lake Tahoe on June 2nd, just for fun. I think we might have a small group headed out - if anyone is interested registration opened this morning, and I heard it closed out fairly quickly last year.

2013-01-07 10:08 AM
in reply to: #4543084

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

I have waterproof but thin chemical warmers to put under my wetsuit and outside a rasher

I don't know if I'd use these in the wetsuit, but I assume you've tried it already.  I think they would be better in your jersey or gloves on the bike where the wind chill really gets you.  Better than the old newspaper-in-the-jersey trick

2013-01-07 10:12 AM
in reply to: #4565903

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
spudone - 2013-01-08 12:08 AM

I have waterproof but thin chemical warmers to put under my wetsuit and outside a rasher

I don't know if I'd use these in the wetsuit, but I assume you've tried it already.  I think they would be better in your jersey or gloves on the bike where the wind chill really gets you.  Better than the old newspaper-in-the-jersey trick

SPIGLET!!! Where ya been? I've been thinking all over about you.

The chemical warmers haven't even arrived in the mail yet. I packed them up in Oz and sent them here. The other package got here fine, though, so it shouldn't be long. Yes, they are a legal item to ship

Something I'm going to try out in the mountain lakes. And warmers in the gloves and jersey pockets is de rigeur, and listed.



2013-01-07 10:17 AM
in reply to: #4565908

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Awesome Yanti, if that doesn't work for you i can't imagine what would!  I can't wait to hear how the trial swims in the mountain lakes go.  
2013-01-07 10:21 AM
in reply to: #4565868

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

TankBoy - 2013-01-07 9:58 AM Yeah, you are killing the swim this month Fred. I will be curious to see what you think about your run/bike fitness afterward. Last summer when I had to lay off running for so long I subbed in walks of the same time of every run I would have done and a lot harder/longer swim sets. I actually found the added LT sets on the swim to help my overall fitness - didn't really experience any falloff on my run. It is interesting in the IMLP group everyone is doing the typical "swim is such a short overall part of IM and an increase in 5~10 minutes on the swim is insignificant in IM so I am not going to focus too much on the swim and just get through it" talk. In my experience anyway this is a really, really bad strategy, especially for us older folks. I have found the swim to be such a great way to build real cardiovascular fitness without the impact of running or even hard cycling. Plus, we just cannot underestimate the importance of coming out of the water at IM feeling fresh and relaxed. Ah, well.

This is my plan as well.  Once I get in the pool I will be spending at least 3 days a week there and go hard at least once a week.  I honestly feel my best plan of attack is more swimming and biking and less running.  I am a slow runner and while I expect to run 3 times a week I will not be running 18+ miles that would take me 5+ hours, not good for this old body.

2013-01-07 10:35 AM
in reply to: #4565868

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

TankBoy - 2013-01-07 11:58 AM Yeah, you are killing the swim this month Fred. I will be curious to see what you think about your run/bike fitness afterward. Last summer when I had to lay off running for so long I subbed in walks of the same time of every run I would have done and a lot harder/longer swim sets. I actually found the added LT sets on the swim to help my overall fitness - didn't really experience any falloff on my run. It is interesting in the IMLP group everyone is doing the typical "swim is such a short overall part of IM and an increase in 5~10 minutes on the swim is insignificant in IM so I am not going to focus too much on the swim and just get through it" talk. In my experience anyway this is a really, really bad strategy, especially for us older folks. I have found the swim to be such a great way to build real cardiovascular fitness without the impact of running or even hard cycling. Plus, we just cannot underestimate the importance of coming out of the water at IM feeling fresh and relaxed. Ah, well.

I hear ya Rusty, that mind set drives me bonkers!  I understand the thought process but I think it's a bit short sighted.  As you said, there are so many advantages to coming out of the water fresh!  If you can get yourself out of the water ahead of the big packs you get less crowding (in the change tents, on the bike etc).  My wife took pics of the difference between what I experienced from the run out of the water to T1 vs those that came out with the masses - I had the place almost to myself!  

That said, I do appreciate the head start.  

2013-01-07 10:44 AM
in reply to: #4565932

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
KeriKadi - 2013-01-07 12:21 PM

TankBoy - 2013-01-07 9:58 AM Yeah, you are killing the swim this month Fred. I will be curious to see what you think about your run/bike fitness afterward. Last summer when I had to lay off running for so long I subbed in walks of the same time of every run I would have done and a lot harder/longer swim sets. I actually found the added LT sets on the swim to help my overall fitness - didn't really experience any falloff on my run. It is interesting in the IMLP group everyone is doing the typical "swim is such a short overall part of IM and an increase in 5~10 minutes on the swim is insignificant in IM so I am not going to focus too much on the swim and just get through it" talk. In my experience anyway this is a really, really bad strategy, especially for us older folks. I have found the swim to be such a great way to build real cardiovascular fitness without the impact of running or even hard cycling. Plus, we just cannot underestimate the importance of coming out of the water at IM feeling fresh and relaxed. Ah, well.

This is my plan as well.  Once I get in the pool I will be spending at least 3 days a week there and go hard at least once a week.  I honestly feel my best plan of attack is more swimming and biking and less running.  I am a slow runner and while I expect to run 3 times a week I will not be running 18+ miles that would take me 5+ hours, not good for this old body.

I like it.  

May I suggest going hard for all 3 swims?  You don't have to go hard for the whole swim but at least do a bit of hard swimming each time.  Even if it's just something short like 6x50.  Something like that isn't going to be hard on you or interfere with other workouts but gives a little taste of swimming hard.

2013-01-07 10:44 AM
in reply to: #4543084

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Whew...finished up a pretty big training week.  Just one of those weeks where it was the new year and I wanted to set the tone for myself.  Skipped my "optional" trainer ride this morning but will run/swim after work.  Hope everyone gets off to the right foot today...first "normal" work week in a while.


2013-01-07 10:58 AM
in reply to: #4565996

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
axteraa - 2013-01-07 10:44 AM
KeriKadi - 2013-01-07 12:21 PM

TankBoy - 2013-01-07 9:58 AM Yeah, you are killing the swim this month Fred. I will be curious to see what you think about your run/bike fitness afterward. Last summer when I had to lay off running for so long I subbed in walks of the same time of every run I would have done and a lot harder/longer swim sets. I actually found the added LT sets on the swim to help my overall fitness - didn't really experience any falloff on my run. It is interesting in the IMLP group everyone is doing the typical "swim is such a short overall part of IM and an increase in 5~10 minutes on the swim is insignificant in IM so I am not going to focus too much on the swim and just get through it" talk. In my experience anyway this is a really, really bad strategy, especially for us older folks. I have found the swim to be such a great way to build real cardiovascular fitness without the impact of running or even hard cycling. Plus, we just cannot underestimate the importance of coming out of the water at IM feeling fresh and relaxed. Ah, well.

This is my plan as well.  Once I get in the pool I will be spending at least 3 days a week there and go hard at least once a week.  I honestly feel my best plan of attack is more swimming and biking and less running.  I am a slow runner and while I expect to run 3 times a week I will not be running 18+ miles that would take me 5+ hours, not good for this old body.

I like it.  

May I suggest going hard for all 3 swims?  You don't have to go hard for the whole swim but at least do a bit of hard swimming each time.  Even if it's just something short like 6x50.  Something like that isn't going to be hard on you or interfere with other workouts but gives a little taste of swimming hard.

Good point.  As part of my warm up I often do 25hard/25easy or 50/50 will definitely do those on my days that are not filled with intervals. Not a bad warm up on my 'long swim' day.  Unlike running I actually like gassing out in the water, I recover so much faster in the water than the run.



Edited by KeriKadi 2013-01-07 10:59 AM
2013-01-07 11:00 AM
in reply to: #4565646

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
axteraa - 2013-01-06 9:40 AM
itsallrelative_Maine - 2013-01-07 10:33 AM

Hey Arend - for the shin splints, a friend of mine pointed me to ART - specifically for shin splints, you take a tennis ball and roll along the outside of the shin bone (so for the left leg, you would be rolling on the left side of the shin bone, right where it starts to get meaty) as much as you can stand - this made a world of different for me. If you are interested, I'll try to scare up the link to the site.

Thanks!  Were you getting the shin splints along the outside?  Mine is along the inside.

Mine were on the inside as well.

2013-01-07 11:01 AM
in reply to: #4565923

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Payson, AZ
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

axteraa - 2013-01-07 9:17 AM Awesome Yanti, if that doesn't work for you i can't imagine what would!  I can't wait to hear how the trial swims in the mountain lakes go.  

Yeah, I think your a lost cause if that crap doesn't work.  I actually think you are on the right track on staying out of the water as long as possible.  Seems to me with your issues less time in the water the better and just get your body warmed up as much as possible on land.  You did not mention chemical warms on the bike though, I'd get some for there as well.

2013-01-07 11:01 AM
in reply to: #4565975

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
axteraa - 2013-01-07 11:35 AM

TankBoy - 2013-01-07 11:58 AM Yeah, you are killing the swim this month Fred. I will be curious to see what you think about your run/bike fitness afterward. Last summer when I had to lay off running for so long I subbed in walks of the same time of every run I would have done and a lot harder/longer swim sets. I actually found the added LT sets on the swim to help my overall fitness - didn't really experience any falloff on my run. It is interesting in the IMLP group everyone is doing the typical "swim is such a short overall part of IM and an increase in 5~10 minutes on the swim is insignificant in IM so I am not going to focus too much on the swim and just get through it" talk. In my experience anyway this is a really, really bad strategy, especially for us older folks. I have found the swim to be such a great way to build real cardiovascular fitness without the impact of running or even hard cycling. Plus, we just cannot underestimate the importance of coming out of the water at IM feeling fresh and relaxed. Ah, well.

I hear ya Rusty, that mind set drives me bonkers!  I understand the thought process but I think it's a bit short sighted.  As you said, there are so many advantages to coming out of the water fresh!  If you can get yourself out of the water ahead of the big packs you get less crowding (in the change tents, on the bike etc).  My wife took pics of the difference between what I experienced from the run out of the water to T1 vs those that came out with the masses - I had the place almost to myself!  

That said, I do appreciate the head start.  

I swam almost 4x per week lst year during race season - my most ever.  I wasn't much faster out of the water, but I was stronger on the bike and run.  I put that down to having spent more time training in the pool.  Plan this year is to increase the volume on individual swim days - I was limited by swimming only at lunch last year, but this year I'll have to suck it up and get going in the mornings once the gym opens.  No excuses for keeping the workouts short.

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