Goal less partner (Page 3)

That depends on the person but when it gets to the point where the kids only see their parents sad or angry that is no way for a child to live no matter how hard the parents are trying to make it work.

I think finding positive conflict resolution and modelling it in the house is very important for kids to see how things can be resolved.   If it works for you not to argue in front of the kids, great, but in the end just seeing that people can disagree and find a way to move on is really important.  Fighting is not the end of the world but finding a way to argue that isn't about tearing the other person down is really key. 

I don't think i was scarred by seeing my parents argue on occassion - they did try to keep stuff away from us but in a house its nearly impossible. When they had taken on too much mortgage and would argue about money every night I couldn't help but hear even though I was supposed to be sleeping.  I did see some bad stuff too - in the end their commitment to one another was always stronger than the fights and it outweighed the fighting.  It all goes to experience and helped me to form what i wanted to be and get out of my own relationships.

Keri, thanks for sharing -  this is the perfect example of how you can move on and do better for you and your kids. 

Abuse is physical, sexual, or extreme psychological torture.

If you had told forebears such as mine who left war torn famine riddled countries 
in the bowels of stinking disease infested ships in order to come to a country
where they had the opportunity to work at extremely dangerous menial labor jobs
all the while keeping their families together and doing it all for the good of their children and future generations, that living in a "toxic" family environment, among the others in your litany, was abuse, they would look at you like you were from mars.

So would their children.

We've become a culture of coddled self absorbed grown children.

Somebody thinks it's a bad idea for your children to see you sad or angry.
Great. Then don't be sad or angry in front of your children.
Master your emotions instead of letting them be your master.

Love is a decision, not a feeling.
Love is willing the good for another for their own end.

We live in a time when the family as an institution is falling apart,
and along with that comes all of the bitter fruits.
Rather than dealing with the root cause of it, the cry instead is, "Yeah, but what's in it for me?" 

It has to be extreme?  So just your normal, run of the mill, physiological torture is ok?

Of course not. Don't put words in my mouth.

I used that phrase deliberately.  

This is where I have a problem.
Are you, as a man of the church/god, suggesting that we essentially lie to our children and others by putting on a fake facade pretending we are happy when we're anything but? That's what I am reading, and it's boggling my mind.

I think that kids are very observant and learn from example.  If they are at home in a toxic environment, or even if it's not toxic, but unloving (like if parents never talk, hold hands, sleep in the same bedrooms) that' teaches kids the wrong things.  They think THAT's what a relationship is, and you perpetuate that.  So now you get generations of the same "type" of unloving families just for the sake of "families".  A "family" is NOT just a bunch of people under the same roof with the same last name.  I don't think you stay in a relationship just for that.

That being said, I think divorce is WAY too easy an "out" these days.  Got to do a little bit of work in a marriage?  God forbid, let's get a divorce.  The honeymoon phase is over and you actually have disagreements?  Oh no, get a divorce.  I don't think people try NEARLY hard enough to stay in a relationship.  But it takes both to try.  It can't be a one sided attempt.

Marriages are not disposable, however, if after work and effort to make it work you decide (with professional help) that there is no chance to have a healthy relationship (and healthy for the kids) then I think the appropriate decision for the kids IS to divorce and get into healthy relationships.

I was too young to remember, but my mom divorced my biological father and remarried an amazing man.  I think I turned out pretty well under his raising.  I don't know how I could have turned out with my biological dad based on knowing who he was, how HIS parents were, etc.  I absolutely believe I had a happier and healthier childhood under the roof of two loving parents than I would have under the roof of an oppressive father figure and a mother unhappy being oppressed (not allowed to work or have her own life other than to raise a family) - IF they stayed together for the sake of the child (being me).

Fair enough. I'm sure you don't think any type of torture is "OK".  So a question then since you made that statement very deliberately  Can  you give me an example of extreme psychological torture that is reason for a divorce and an example of non extreme psychological torture that you work through?  I'm just trying to define where you draw the line and define "extreme" when it come to psychological torture.

I agree with all of this.

I would also add it is WAY too easy to get married.  People do not take it seriously.  Waiting periods would be a good idea.  Apply for the marriage license and wait 90 days would be great I think.  Of course counseling ahead of time is also invaluable.

Right. Torture is not OK ever.

I think we would all agree about when someone is actually being psychologically tortured.

Mere annoyance with someone, or merely not "feeling" in love with someone, or feeling like your needs aren't being me, and still needing to maintain a marriage is not torture.

You're a professional.
If you're angry or sad about something in your personal life,
do you make it the center piece of a business meeting?
Of course not.  You deal with the business issue at hand and meet the responsibility you have to your colleagues. Maybe you mention it in passing, but you don't burden them with your emotions.

Same with parents and children.
Not being angry or sad around our children is different than putting on a fake mask of happiness.
It's merely having mastery over our emotions and not burdening our children with them.
They need us to take care of business where they're concerned.

No lying involved at all.
It's about prudence regarding how and where we show our emotions. 

Maybe I'm being nitpicky.  but you said EXTREME psychological torture.  I agree with your second sentence.  That is not "torture".  So what IS torture, but not extreme torture?  Just trying to get that straight - and again, you confirmed that was a very deliberate statement and choice of words.

Sillyness definitely helps. I agree with that.

Someone makes you feel physically ill over stress where it affects your parenting and job? That’s not tortured but not a situation for kids to be around.  This sounds like one of the typical debates where people who have never been in a situation like this tell others how they are doing it wrong.

The standard people may use for what is torture can be pretty low in these situations.  Someone can say, "I can't stand her anymore, it's just torture to be around her". That's not torture, and I hope we all would agree.

So I used the word "extreme" in the phrase to highlight the notion that psychological torture would be in the same realm as someone physically beating a spouse or child or raping either.

If my fore-bearers, who went thru all this and more, looked at me as if I were crazy, I wouldn't be too impressed. They would also look at me as if I were crazy because I insist that my kids wear helmets while bike riding and skiing, and hard as it is to believe, that they wear seat-belts in the car. All that needless codling....

My kids see me when I am sad or angry. They see emotions. I am raising them in the real world, not fantasy land. And they know that they are loved, which, by the way, is not a decision. You don't decide you love someone. If you think that you do, that isn't love.

Divorce isn't an easy choice to make, or at least, it shouldn't be. It should be the last resort, after all else has been seriously attempted. But sometimes the best thing you can do for your kids is not force them to live in an environment which is simply bad for them.

If you honestly think that is how a conversation about divorce goes, you are SERIOUSLY mistaken.

Getting divorced was the most difficult decision I have ever made. I can't even properly convey how awful the years surrounding it were, and I continue to be surprised by the amount of guilt I still carry, 12 years later. That guilt partially comes from sweeping generalizations exactly like yours, despite the fact that all of us--me, my ex, and my kids--all agree now it was the right thing to do.

ETA: I didn't see your follow-up post before I wrote this, obviously. I'm very glad you realize that not every situation is like this.

OK, treat marriage and raising kids as a business meeting. Got it!

Being a little facetious of course, but I think there's more of a middle ground approach that should be taken. Emotion is part of life. If kids never see their parents deal with feelings and emotion, how will they be equipped to do so?

When I have something really crazy happen in my personal life, I absolutely bring it up to my manager so he's aware of my situation and that I might need some personal time to deal with it. I wouldn't make it the center of an UNRELATED meeting, but I certainly wouldn't hide it. 

My dear CoJ friends whom I've grown to love. Truly.

I gave my opinion regarding Bigdave001's difficult situation.
He or anyone else if free to take it or leave it.

I wish him and everyone else nothing but the best
in whatever decisions you make regarding your family lives. 

If anyone wants to chat privately in PM's about anything I've written, I'm happy to do that.
Otherwise, I hope this thread serves to help Bigdave001 with some concrete solutions in what I'm sure is a painful situation.