re JeepFleeb's not so much volume comment (Page 3)

Intensity and endurance are not mutually exclusive.  For example, intensity does not have to mean short track repeats but could mean long LT-type intervals.

The problem is that training is really simple.  But talking about it can be highly complicated. 

I hear what you are saying...it wasn't as if I went from 2 hour runs to 3.5 hour run. I've been building up slowly..I go up 2 miles for each long run after doing that distance twice...so I did 14 twice, 16 twice, just finished my second 18-19 mile run.

My coach given my injury history prefers me not run back to back days. I have asked him about doing two runs the same day instead of one long one and he doesn't think that is the best route for me.

So far my gradual build up this year has worked and this week I will run more than I ever have and I should have my first 100 mile running month. I know for many of you that isn't much.

In the end we each need to choose our own path for training from picking a plan or hiring a coach and trusting their advice and plan for us. I've worked with my coach this is my fourth season and he knows from the past seasons what works and doesn't work for me. He has been coaching full time 10+ years and I trust him.

This is a really good thread. All I am going to add is that in my experience coaching IM athletes (and I have coached from beginner to professional and everywhere in between) the only thing you can say as a definite is that everyone is definitely different. What works for one may or may not work for another, there are as many ways to train as there are athletes.

Ultimately you have to figure out how much of a training load an athlete can handle, how quickly they recover and prescribe training to maximize both all while keeping the athlete healthy and motivated.

I think amiine summed it up weel!  People are vastly differernt....but you and I are not as different as say you and Karen @ 124 lbs.  I'm one of the few people here that has finished an IM at 250+ lbs and, like we say in my profession, 'one test is worth a thousand expert opinons'. 

Your in great running shape but as I've written before, the IM challange is about the bike.  The swim is warm-up and the difference in running 26 miles and walking 26 miles changes our (big guys like us) finish time by only about an hour or so.   Biking 112 miles - especially on hills - is tough and sitting on a bike for 7 hours is not something you can prepare for with 3 hrs on the trainer!  Weird things happen after 6....7....8  hours of sitting on a bike seat and peddling.

The first time I biked 75 my legs locked up.  I mean totally locked and I actually had to fall over in the grass to get them to bend.  But by the end of the training season, I biked 120 miles and never cramped up.  I had conditioned my body to go long.  Had I never pushed to go 75+ miles, I would have cramped on the IM course and probably DNF'd.  I'm biking 80+ miles every weekend this year and have yet to get any cramps. 

So while I won't question the experts like Jeeps on IM training in general I do question the applicabilty to us full-figured gals.  Go long man.  Run as far as you can and bike as long as you can.  Push and find your body's limits and then the next week, push the envelop further and go longer.  And do it again the next week...and the next....and the next...

~Mike

KSH - 2008-05-22 8:32 AM I know for me, I'm not gambling the cost of a coach, IM registration, a plane ticket, bike shipping, a new tri outfit, hotel room for a week, etc... on riding short on the weekends. I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that I cross that finish line. I am going to do what my coach tells me. If he says ride 5 hours. That's what I'm doing.

Good for you Karen!

~Mike

Thank you all for an awesome discussion.  I now understand much better what JeepFleeb was saying, and also the variations upon that theme. 

One of the things I really like about the folks here at BT is that we can have a discussion wherein we have some disagreement, and all learn from each other. 

Thank you coaches, and also thank you guys who are just ahead of me on the learning curve.  What I take away from this discussion is that:
1) recovery is crucial - cannot make gains without proper recovery.  This is something that I've been struggling with in my current plan - not enough recovery.
2) Volume can be taken in a single day, or in multiple days.  I think what JF is saying is that it's easier and more efficient to recover from multiple (shorter) workouts than from a single long one, and the benefits are greater because you are fresher in each session.
3) Less experienced/conditioned/fit athletes need some long long sessions and training for them is advantageous - apply JF's thinking to this and you would say, yes but not every day.

The plan I'm on for my 1/2 IM is built around the multiple day theory.  this week is Run 30, Run 45, Run 2 hrs on successive days.  For a novice like me it is more difficult to see the progress in this plan as compared to increasing the long run on a weekly basis.  It's also trickier to add an ad-hoc bike ride, run or swim.  But thanks to this discussion I have a much better understanding now.

Once again, awesome thread! Thank you all for sharining your knowledge and experience.

Rogillio - 2008-05-22 9:37 AM

KSH - 2008-05-22 8:32 AM I know for me, I'm not gambling the cost of a coach, IM registration, a plane ticket, bike shipping, a new tri outfit, hotel room for a week, etc... on riding short on the weekends. I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that I cross that finish line. I am going to do what my coach tells me. If he says ride 5 hours. That's what I'm doing.

 

Good for you Karen!

 

~Mike

I agree Karen, I'm trusting my coach to get me ready..he knows how I respond to training, he knows me pretty well over these last 4 years...I do what he tells me as I know he is in the best position to guide my training. I pay him to help me I should trust him.

Isn't all training like this?  (There's nothing 'special' about IM training.)

Maybe.  Or maybe it should just come through balancing individual sessions through the week.  There's no single recipe for fatigue & recovery.  For AGers, it's the "rest of life" that probably determines how best to arrange this. 

Is that a Freudian typo?  :-)

~Mike

you just don't speak Chi,, that's all  

The paragraph you quoted does say "there might be occassions" and "in general" and "for most people".  That is, it's not intended to be gospel for 100% of the people, 100% of the time.

I agree that most will benefit from a long ride, but they really only need to do 6-7 hours once or twice to work on pacing, nutrition, staying aero for long duration, etc.

I personally can’t see many guys could KQ with just a few long/intense swims, rides and runs.

That definitely isn't my plan of attack

I'm generally with you Jorge.  But Bryan was talking about BOP and MOP with the 6-7 hour ride.  I think those athletes should do that as well.  They just don't need to do it very often (if their plan is well-designed anyway).  If recovery from such a session is a big issue, then more 'intermediate' duration rides may be the better choice to optimize the balance between training stress and recover.  It's all dependent upon the athlete and the sum of all their constraints  (which I know you already know ).