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5K Strategy (Page 3)
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 2009-11-11 2:51 PM in reply to: #2508489 |
Master  1686     Royersford, PA |  Subject: RE: 5K StrategyI think part of it is you have to understand your strenghs and play to them. The first mile is always going to be fast but the key for me is keeping a reign on it for the first half mile and not get carried along by those who go out way too fast. After the first half mile, I will size up where I am and what I'm feeling and go to work. The problem of hammering from the start is the time you lose at the end is so much greater the time you gain at the start. So I ramp up the effort as i go along and try and fall off less than everyone else and pick up spots. If there is a good hill or two on the course I'll pace my effort so I can hammer them and make up a ton of ground. I'll take a negative split and having noone pass me over the last 2 miles over a fast start everytime. |
| 2009-11-11 2:54 PM in reply to: #2508562 |
Elite 3683 Whispering Pines, North Carolina | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy Daremo - 2009-11-11 11:00 AM Surge - 2009-11-11 10:24 AM depends how fast you wanna go. i run around a 17 and ive found that you cant i repeat you CANT go out hard and hang on.. its not possible try to hold back a little on the first mile i say hold back because it will be extremely easy to go out and hammer it then you pay for it on your last mile. second mile pick up the pace a bit and your last mile should be your fastest. the thing that kills most runners is the first mile. i can easily put in a 5:10 first mile but i start dramatically slowing down at the end. "start smooth and only get stronger." Funny. You'd think the people that researched the fastest way to run a 5k would listen to you then ........... but they don't because you are wrong .........  The fastest way to run a 5k is to go out fast, run the fastest mile in the first one, then hold on. You should see about a 6 - 10% drop off in your second mile and then hold on as well as you can for the third. Typically because of excitement to be near the finish you will split the third mile about the same as the second. Don't believe me? http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-238-244-259-11738-0,00.html I took the last two 5Ks that I recently ran to get this data. I go out hard in the first mile. After that, my pace drops by approximately 6-7% or so for the second mile. Third mile is very close to second mile pace. Daremo is SPOT on, at least for me... |
| 2009-11-11 3:36 PM in reply to: #2508489 |
Expert 1118 , North Carolina | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy Daremo also advised me when I asked a similar question in a thread a couple of months ago. I ran a PR at my 5K that I didn't even think possible at the time; and that was after having run a 10K the day before! Warm up, dig deep, run hard and fast, and push through the discomfort... Edited by maria40nc 2009-11-11 3:37 PM |
| 2009-11-11 4:17 PM in reply to: #2509348 |
Sensei Sin City | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy My strategy is to warm up well and run as fast as I can. |
| 2009-11-11 5:01 PM in reply to: #2508489 |
Elite 3683 Whispering Pines, North Carolina | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy In my opinion (and experience) in running 5Ks, if you don't go out hard in the first mile, then you're dropped and you're not catching the leaders... Negative split a 5K and you better be really fast to win or place in a competitive 5K. |
| 2009-11-11 6:45 PM in reply to: #2508489 |
| Expert 936 Salisbury | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy I'm no expert but it makes sense that your PR's would come from going out fast and trying to hang on. Simply because if you're "on" that day you'll be able to hang on better. However, you may run the risk of having a bad day and dropping off dramatically. So, more consistant times would probably come from even or negative splits. *shrug* Just my thoughts.
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| 2009-11-11 8:02 PM in reply to: #2508489 |
Master 1348 Gurnee, IL | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy Put me down as another in the camp of Positive splits. My 5K's (I also run ALOT of them) are almost always the same. Go out HARD then hang on for dear life. Mile 1 I start with the leaders and hang on for 3/4 of the mile or so before backing off to a more sustainable pace. Mile 2 Ends up 5-10 seconds slower/mile than the 1st Mile 3 another 5-10 second drop off in pace. final .10 is whatever is left.... I tell myself that unless I feel like quitting the race early on, than I'm not going hard enough. Then I remind myself that I never have quit a race so why start now? Is it the best strategy for everyone? I don't think so. BUT I do not get caught typically behind slow runners that I have to zig zag around. I can take a better line on the tangents. I'll pick out a taller slightly faster runner (I see many familiar faces) and draft. It really depends on your training, and your personality. In many races by running with the early leaders, I'll catch a glimpse behind me and see that we have put in a nice gap over the field. Mentally I feel better having this gap then having to MAKE UP the gap. Others certainly get into the closing of the gap mentality. Whatever works for you. You'll do a few races and figure it out for yourself. |
| 2009-11-11 10:06 PM in reply to: #2509748 |
Extreme Veteran 671 Not Quite DFL | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy oriolepwr - 2009-11-11 8:02 PM Put me down as another in the camp of Positive splits. My 5K's (I also run ALOT of them) are almost always the same. Go out HARD then hang on for dear life. Mile 1 I start with the leaders and hang on for 3/4 of the mile or so before backing off to a more sustainable pace. Mile 2 Ends up 5-10 seconds slower/mile than the 1st Mile 3 another 5-10 second drop off in pace. final .10 is whatever is left.... I tell myself that unless I feel like quitting the race early on, than I'm not going hard enough. Then I remind myself that I never have quit a race so why start now? Is it the best strategy for everyone? I don't think so. BUT I do not get caught typically behind slow runners that I have to zig zag around. I can take a better line on the tangents. I'll pick out a taller slightly faster runner (I see many familiar faces) and draft. It really depends on your training, and your personality. In many races by running with the early leaders, I'll catch a glimpse behind me and see that we have put in a nice gap over the field. Mentally I feel better having this gap then having to MAKE UP the gap. Others certainly get into the closing of the gap mentality. Whatever works for you. You'll do a few races and figure it out for yourself. This is very close to what I do. I've tried the negative split in training - only made for some really slow times. I've run nothing but 5K's -- no expert for sure - but my best race this year came with me going all out, hitting my best mile time in years, and then dropping off - yes, by more than 10 seconds - but oh well. I am just back into regular exercise after a 10 year or so hiatus. I am having a ball and hoping to do more than just 5K's next year. When it comes to my 5K's - if I don't feel like puking by the time I've crossed the line - I didn't run hard enough. I always try to sprint the last 200 if I think I have a chance at a better time/place - and it's always good for the crowd that is there. Good luck, and have fun. |
| 2009-11-11 10:28 PM in reply to: #2508489 |
| Expert 763 Behind you | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy My first 5k, I was tieing my shoe when the gun went off, was so excited anyway that I sprinted out like a jackrabbit and I was about 3-4 in front. Before I knew it, after mile 1, grandma was passing me up. I agree with others, start slow, build on mile 2, then all you got on last stretch. Then puke. |
| 2009-11-12 6:22 AM in reply to: #2509879 |
Elite 3683 Whispering Pines, North Carolina | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy crimefighter2 - 2009-11-11 11:06 PM oriolepwr - 2009-11-11 8:02 PM Put me down as another in the camp of Positive splits. My 5K's (I also run ALOT of them) are almost always the same. Go out HARD then hang on for dear life. Mile 1 I start with the leaders and hang on for 3/4 of the mile or so before backing off to a more sustainable pace. Mile 2 Ends up 5-10 seconds slower/mile than the 1st Mile 3 another 5-10 second drop off in pace. final .10 is whatever is left.... I tell myself that unless I feel like quitting the race early on, than I'm not going hard enough. Then I remind myself that I never have quit a race so why start now? Is it the best strategy for everyone? I don't think so. BUT I do not get caught typically behind slow runners that I have to zig zag around. I can take a better line on the tangents. I'll pick out a taller slightly faster runner (I see many familiar faces) and draft. It really depends on your training, and your personality. In many races by running with the early leaders, I'll catch a glimpse behind me and see that we have put in a nice gap over the field. Mentally I feel better having this gap then having to MAKE UP the gap. Others certainly get into the closing of the gap mentality. Whatever works for you. You'll do a few races and figure it out for yourself. This is very close to what I do. I've tried the negative split in training - only made for some really slow times. I've run nothing but 5K's -- no expert for sure - but my best race this year came with me going all out, hitting my best mile time in years, and then dropping off - yes, by more than 10 seconds - but oh well. I am just back into regular exercise after a 10 year or so hiatus. I am having a ball and hoping to do more than just 5K's next year. When it comes to my 5K's - if I don't feel like puking by the time I've crossed the line - I didn't run hard enough. I always try to sprint the last 200 if I think I have a chance at a better time/place - and it's always good for the crowd that is there. Good luck, and have fun. I wonder if i'm going out too hard, then. my second mile drops off by more than 30 seconds, but then i'm able to maintain that pace for the third mile. |
| 2009-11-12 9:49 AM in reply to: #2508489 |
Expert 1123 Columbus | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy I have done a couple hundred 5ks. I ran in the high 16s / low 17s in th 80s (I run low 18s now). I am a track and cross country coach Go as hard as you can for as long as you can is terrible advice. Set a goal time based on previous performance at 5k or convert from a 2, 4, 5mile or 10k race. If you haven't done any just do it and learn your baseline. Take your goal time divide it by 3.1 - that is your pace. The first 200 meters will be either very fast to clear the pack if you are a front runner (under 20:00) or it will be very slow as you move with the mob - this is fine, it will allow you to keep moving yet warm up. By 400 meters you will be in your appx finish position. pick someone to pace off of. allow them to take the wind. you should be running hard but below your lactic threshold (you should fee exertion but by breathing easily, it should be difficult to say mare than a few word but not impossible to talk. your first mile should by faster than overall pace but leave you enough to finish. 5-10% faster your second mile should be as close to pace as you can keep it. your third mile should also be as close to pace as possible. the last tenth of a mile is where you MUST go as hard as you can. dig deep and beat the clock. to understand how to run at a pace - go to the track and do 8 quarters on pace with 60 seconds rest between - don't forget to warm up / cool down oh yeah this is for open 5ks. in a tri i am looking for 3 equal miles instead of a faster first mile. Edited by bruehoyt 2009-11-12 9:54 AM |
| 2009-11-12 11:26 AM in reply to: #2510472 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy bruehoyt - 2009-11-12 10:49 AM you should be running hard but below your lactic threshold (you should fee exertion but by breathing easily, it should be difficult to say mare than a few word but not impossible to talk. What?????????? That is so far beyond true, it is not even worth arguing. Someone's LT pace is their 15k to 1/2 marathon pace - the pace they can hold for an hour. If someone is running that in a 5k, they are not racing a 5k, they are doing a fast training run. your first mile should by faster than overall pace but leave you enough to finish. 5-10% faster your second mile should be as close to pace as you can keep it. your third mile should also be as close to pace as possible. the last tenth of a mile is where you MUST go as hard as you can. dig deep and beat the clock. Gee, that sounds a awful lot like what I already posted. Which has been translated out by everyone else (including myself) as "Go as hard as you can for as long as you can." Oh, and I also coach track and x-country ............... just not at the high school level. Edited by Daremo 2009-11-12 11:26 AM |
| 2009-11-12 11:50 AM in reply to: #2508489 |
Master 3888 Overland Park, KS | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy This whole 5K discussion is very interesting with many different opinions. I'm an amatuer so no "coaching" advice here. BUT, I did 4 sprints this summer then when the seaon was over I did two 5K races, two weeks apart. My goal was to average under a 7 minute mile (finish 3.1 miles at or under 21:42). Both courses were similar in terms of hills etc. fairly flat, both of them. My first 5K I went out in 6:20, I new it was a little too fast. I averaged 7:09 the rest of the way, finished at 21:21 so goal was achieved. The next 5K two weeks later I held back a little and did mile 1 in 6:30 and was able to keep pace under 7:00 the rest of the way, finishing in 21:08. I felt like there was more left at the end of the 2nd 5K. Weather conditions for both races were the same so I would say based on my amatuer experience that holding back a little helped to achieve a better time. |
| 2009-11-12 12:19 PM in reply to: #2508489 |
Master 1853 syracuse | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy ahhh....the 5 k pacing strategy....we all go through the conversation and thought process....here is my first one: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=140943&start=21&posts=38 It's nice to know Daremo has not gone anywhere, and is still offering the same advice in the same tone. Listen to him. If you take the time to read the link above, you'll see I took the "hold back" opinion and fought Daremo the whole way like a kid who wont eat his brocolli....than I thought I would listen to Daremo and give it a go. i've PR'd at every 5 k since, and when I broke 20, Daremo was one of the first to know... ok, i'm gonna stop before I make Daremo's head too big....  there is no pacing strategy, go out hard and hold on. If you dont want to quit by mile 2, you went too easy. If you go blind at mile 2, you may have gone a wee bit too fast...... Edited by cusetri 2009-11-12 12:20 PM |
| 2009-11-12 12:41 PM in reply to: #2510755 |
Expert 1123 Columbus | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy Daremo - 2009-11-12 12:26 PM bruehoyt - 2009-11-12 10:49 AM you should be running hard but below your lactic threshold (you should fee exertion but by breathing easily, it should be difficult to say mare than a few word but not impossible to talk. What?????????? That is so far beyond true, it is not even worth arguing. Someone's LT pace is their 15k to 1/2 marathon pace - the pace they can hold for an hour. If someone is running that in a 5k, they are not racing a 5k, they are doing a fast training run. your first mile should by faster than overall pace but leave you enough to finish. 5-10% faster your second mile should be as close to pace as you can keep it. your third mile should also be as close to pace as possible. the last tenth of a mile is where you MUST go as hard as you can. dig deep and beat the clock. Gee, that sounds a awful lot like what I already posted. Which has been translated out by everyone else (including myself) as "Go as hard as you can for as long as you can." Oh, and I also coach track and x-country ............... just not at the high school level. Didn't mean to get under your skin. Perhaps I should have used the term anaerobic threshold. When you are at the point when you can not keep up with O2 - this may help you understand it better: n at increasing speeds or intensity levels, the point above which the muscles derive their energy from nonoxygenic rather than oxygenic sources during exercise. The body can only operate above this threshold for a short period of time, such as when sprinting, before lactic acid builds up in the muscles. And as hard as you can go is about 5 seconds for 50m. If you went as hard as you could you would last about 50m at that pace and then significantly slow down. Running as hard as you can will let you win the first 100m - what prize do they give you for that? I am glad you feel the same about the first mile as I do. Did I say I disagreed. I listed my times and coaching to help people understand I am not just talking out my ... I see you have pointed out that I am perhaps not as qualified as you. However, I am older, train less hours and still I run faster - I must be doing something right. |
| 2009-11-12 12:58 PM in reply to: #2510907 |
Master 1404 Saratoga Springs, Utah | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy cusetri - 2009-11-12 11:19 AM ahhh....the 5 k pacing strategy....we all go through the conversation and thought process....here is my first one: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=140943&start=21&posts=38 It's nice to know Daremo has not gone anywhere, and is still offering the same advice in the same tone. Listen to him. If you take the time to read the link above, you'll see I took the "hold back" opinion and fought Daremo the whole way like a kid who wont eat his brocolli....than I thought I would listen to Daremo and give it a go. i've PR'd at every 5 k since, and when I broke 20, Daremo was one of the first to know... ok, i'm gonna stop before I make Daremo's head too big.... there is no pacing strategy, go out hard and hold on. If you dont want to quit by mile 2, you went too easy. If you go blind at mile 2, you may have gone a wee bit too fast...... No problem here with going out hard the first mile. The issue I have is what is being advocated up to 10% faster. After you cross that 6% faster line you start to lose more time than you gain. Even in your PR the time difference between the first mile and the 2nd was :21 which is reasonable and puts you at 3% faster than your average pace, 6:14 vs 6:26. The post above yours is a perfect example of going to hard in the first race and losing time and in the second he backed off by about 3% and made up the lost time and more. |
| 2009-11-12 1:03 PM in reply to: #2508489 |
Runner | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy We all realize that there are about as many ways to run a 5K as there are people running a 5K, yes? With that being said, there is no one "right" way of doing it. Pretty like everything else in running. The strategy that works best for some people may not be worth diddly to another. Arguing over the "best" strategy is fruitless, because there is no "best". "Best" is whatever strategy helps you achieve your goals. And I'm willing to bet that most of the people harping on which strategy is better probably throw that strategy out the window once the gun goes off and just try to run their hearts out; they've done it so often their bodies just fall into the rhythm. And really, why does it have to be any more complicated than that? Why clutter it up with scientific terms and studies and percentages and whatnot? Just run, baby. Go like heck. Your best teacher is gonna be your experience, not a bunch of yahoos on the internet. And yes, this last statement includes myself. |
| 2009-11-12 1:06 PM in reply to: #2510997 |
Pro 4277 Parker, CO | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy Scout7 - 2009-11-12 12:03 PM We all realize that there are about as many ways to run a 5K as there are people running a 5K, yes? With that being said, there is no one "right" way of doing it. Pretty like everything else in running. The strategy that works best for some people may not be worth diddly to another. Arguing over the "best" strategy is fruitless, because there is no "best". "Best" is whatever strategy helps you achieve your goals. And I'm willing to bet that most of the people harping on which strategy is better probably throw that strategy out the window once the gun goes off and just try to run their hearts out; they've done it so often their bodies just fall into the rhythm. And really, why does it have to be any more complicated than that? Why clutter it up with scientific terms and studies and percentages and whatnot? Just run, baby. Go like heck. Your best teacher is gonna be your experience, not a bunch of yahoos on the internet. And yes, this last statement includes myself. Amen to that. |
| 2009-11-12 1:11 PM in reply to: #2510954 |
Master 1472 | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy bruehoyt - 2009-11-12 10:41 AM Daremo - 2009-11-12 12:26 PM bruehoyt - 2009-11-12 10:49 AM you should be running hard but below your lactic threshold (you should fee exertion but by breathing easily, it should be difficult to say mare than a few word but not impossible to talk. What?????????? That is so far beyond true, it is not even worth arguing. Someone's LT pace is their 15k to 1/2 marathon pace - the pace they can hold for an hour. If someone is running that in a 5k, they are not racing a 5k, they are doing a fast training run. your first mile should by faster than overall pace but leave you enough to finish. 5-10% faster your second mile should be as close to pace as you can keep it. your third mile should also be as close to pace as possible. the last tenth of a mile is where you MUST go as hard as you can. dig deep and beat the clock. Gee, that sounds a awful lot like what I already posted. Which has been translated out by everyone else (including myself) as "Go as hard as you can for as long as you can." Oh, and I also coach track and x-country ............... just not at the high school level. Didn't mean to get under your skin. Perhaps I should have used the term anaerobic threshold. When you are at the point when you can not keep up with O2 - this may help you understand it better: n at increasing speeds or intensity levels, the point above which the muscles derive their energy from nonoxygenic rather than oxygenic sources during exercise. The body can only operate above this threshold for a short period of time, such as when sprinting, before lactic acid builds up in the muscles. And as hard as you can go is about 5 seconds for 50m. If you went as hard as you could you would last about 50m at that pace and then significantly slow down. Running as hard as you can will let you win the first 100m - what prize do they give you for that? I am glad you feel the same about the first mile as I do. Did I say I disagreed. I listed my times and coaching to help people understand I am not just talking out my ... I see you have pointed out that I am perhaps not as qualified as you. However, I am older, train less hours and still I run faster - I must be doing something right.
I don't think anyone ever intended "as hard as you can go" to mean "sprint". I run 5k's above LT. My LT is 167 and race a 5k around 171. That is my "as hard as I can go". |
| 2009-11-12 1:53 PM in reply to: #2508489 |
Veteran 196 Arlington, VA | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy I program my Garmin 305 with my expected finish time and use the virtual partner to pace me. A quick glance at my wrist lets me know how many feet I am in front of or behind my goal pace. The last mile, I just go based on perceived exertion and usually end up a couple hundred feet (i.e. 15 seconds) in front of the pacer. At the end of the day, perhaps I'll not know if I could have gone a little faster than my race plan, but this keeps me from blowing up. |
| 2009-11-12 2:16 PM in reply to: #2508489 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy LT and AT are the same thing. They are made up terms to describe the point where the ability to shed the H+ ions is not fast enough and some starts to accumulate in the muscles. It is accepted that this is the pace that you can hold FOR AN HOUR or so. It is also below your VO2 max pace/HR (typically 10 - 15 beats below). A 5k is run at or around your VO2 max. pace/HR. A half marathon is just a breath under your LT/AT for faster runners or closer to a 15k effort for average runners. For slower runners, this may be closer to 10k pace. |
| 2009-11-12 2:22 PM in reply to: #2511016 |
Expert 1123 Columbus | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy idahodan - 2009-11-12 2:11 PM
I don't think anyone ever intended "as hard as you can go" to mean "sprint". I run 5k's above LT. My LT is 167 and race a 5k around 171. That is my "as hard as I can go". Understood but that is the reason people need to know hoe to pace because as hard as you can go doesn't mean anything to an inexperienced race and we need quantifiers like abilty to talk / not talk have some pain / no pain too much pain know what a quater mile feels like at race pace etc.say go hard leaves a newer (and some older) runners out of gas before the race is oversince we all agree no one is going as hard as they can - what do we want to recommend? |
| 2009-11-12 4:02 PM in reply to: #2508489 |
Veteran 667 | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy I like to race buddies in 5k. We usually have some kind of stupid bet going. I actually lost the last one and I had to dress like an old school caddy for one of the local golf tournaments - which was a little embarrassing. The pants were ridiculous. Stuff like that. So, my advice is to not start out too fast, and make it into something FUN. |
| 2009-11-12 6:12 PM in reply to: #2508489 |
Extreme Veteran 644 Anaheim | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy yay, semantics! |
| 2009-11-12 6:29 PM in reply to: #2508489 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: 5K Strategy From a personal point of view, my last two 5k PB's have come in two different ways; my 19:06 I set with perfectly even splits and my 18:50 came with a 1:22 first 400m and sub 1:30's for the first mile and then just holding on as best I could after that. From a coaching point of view, for any athlete that is trying to set a PB, it is going to depend on the athlete what I recommend; the more experienced the athlete, the more likely I will give the advice to start fast and hang on. However, my track and x-country athletes are rarely trying to set a PB (unless they are trying to break a record) so instead the race is all about tactics in an attempt to secure the best individual and team finish positions. Shane |
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