10 swimming myths....busted (Page 3)

Makes perfect sense to me.  Also remember seeing a thread in the last few weeks talking about a swim video talking about using a faster or higher stroke count - that for some people it works best.

For me, this would probalby be best, as I have a weak kick plus legs that weigh about 75 lbs. a piece and are like dragging dead logs through the water, plus at 265+ lbs. I tend to sink easy ...

For months and months been trying to work on form, long catch/extension... trying to glide and then a long full pull ... all the way out the back and touching my thinghs with my thumb, etc .... but always seems like I never improve much and always felt like I lost momentum.

Just always thought I wasn't doing it correctly of just needed more practice ... but maybe I need to not worry about long full pulls out the back ... and instead work more on a higher/faster stroke count ...

Like the last poster asked, are there some specific drills to help improve in this area?

I've been wondering about that part of the stroke... in fact I was finishing my stroke by finger tapping my upper thigh.  With this thread in mind I should shorten that up a bit.  Will keep in mind next time I hit the water. 

Thanks for the insight. 

I have actually never heard anyone say you need to push at the back end of the stroke, so I guess I never realized there was a myth to be busted.  I've always heard, and always tell swimmers I try to help, that finishing the stroke isn't so much about catching every bit of water that's at the tail end of the pull.  It's about lengthening the body into the most streamlined position possible.  If they short their pull too much, I see them short their reach with the opposite arm.  As a result, they lose a lot of water on the front end of the stroke and they lose a streamlined position.

I'd also like to know the other nine. 

 

Edited by sesh 2010-05-12 11:27 AM

The thread over on ST has some good discussion in it, especially the importance of doing more tempo/threshold sets. Most triathletes think they can just cruise their swims and never push enough. The pool is one place where you can do high intensity work every day and it should be a major part of your workouts, but so many don't like feeling uncomfortable in the water. Bike and run they will kill themselves but put them in a pool and they loose their HTFU.

Sorry for not getting back sooner. I hope that in the course of getting through these 10 myths I will help answer a lot of questions...so bear with me. Before moving on to myth #2, let me conclude #1 by stating the following:
Most of you have never tried nor even know what a stroke rate at 80 to 90 strokes per minute feels like. In order to get there, you can neither push out the back nor hold in front. You have to use  what I call (living in the Keys) front quadrant, 'catch and release' freestyle; early catch, quick release once you pass the shoulder. One way to get there is by using a drill we designed with dolphin kick and freestyle. One kick to one stroke ratio. Once you synch, without slowing your dolphin kicks down, you'll be in the 80 + stroke rate range. Or you can invest $39 in a Tempo Trainer from Finis which is a metronome under the cap. Use it in the race, too, if you want. It's great. Also, if you are  not sure how to get your stroke rate, invest $45 in an Ultrak 495 stop watch and have someone measure it on stroke rate mode.
Once you try the dolphin free, then switch back to flutter but hold your stroke rate the same. At first you will find it exhausting, but after awhile, like with spinning, and you learn you don't have to try for a home run with each arm pull, just keep a constant pressure up front,  you will get it. As with biking, requires lots of aerobic training to sustain...but for minimal kicking freestyle, it is the best technique.
Wetsuits reduce drag significantly (buoyancy (lift), friction, and probably pressure drag) but we still decelerate quickly...so high stroke rate with a wetsuit still makes sense. The other thing I hate about pushing out the back...your mind goes to the rear, rather than in front where it should be.

Gary Sr.
 

Sorry again, and Mike Mullane, please forgive me, but if you want to see the dolphin/free drill it is on our latest Fundamentals DVD on our Race Club website. A picture is worth a thousand words. Gary

Somewhere out there, T.I. just died a little...

Edited by bryancd 2010-05-12 11:34 AM

X2.

Well, if I am doing some tempo paced stuff, my stoke count per 25 SCY can be in th 17-18 range, so that's around 72 stokes for 1:15 of swim time. I think I could increase turnover to 20 per 25 SCY which would be 80, but that's with an extra :15 of swimming still. I'll have to try that sometime although i doubt I can do it efficiently.

And there's where swimming is very person specific sometimes. We all need to find our own sweet spot.

Edited by bryancd 2010-05-12 11:50 AM

This user's post has been ignored.

I am DEFINITELY going to try this hi-stoke count rate for the next week. I've been doing a lot of gliding, and am swimming pretty hard (for me), but my stroke count remains very slow. I'm probably at around 35-40 even at tempo pace - I don't even know if it's possible to hold 80 yet even for a sprint. But I'm going to give it a go, since I'm fairly certain f that arm turnover is now my limiting factor with such a slow rate. 

If we would all just clap our hands . . . . 

Or is it say the magic words? I can never get that one straight.

Edited by E=H2O 2010-05-12 11:55 AM

Darn it Gary you sound just like my old coach!

I was the guy who could cruise all day at a decent pace but never qualified for standalone freestyle event (I was a breast/IM guy back in the day).

Problem for me is that I feel like I have such a good 'grip' on the water that I'm not strong enough to turn it over that fast. If I let my hands slip a little bit more, I seem to lose all my efficiency. Maybe I just need to practice that dolphin kick drill for a while... does anyone have that on video?

Edit: I don't know anything about T.I. - I'm just a former collegiate swimmer. I have a good catch at the top of my stroke; the slipping I'm referring to is once I bring it down to shoulder level or so, where Gary is encouraging a focus on turnover instead of finishing.



Edited by steves_training 2010-05-12 12:08 PM

Yes, our hands will "slip" some, our elbow will be slightly ahead of our froearm, but you will more than make up for that ineeficiency with the higher turnover keeping you more in the front power part of the stroke. This is why TI is great to learn how to swim but not so good at learning to swim fast.

I can do 80-90 but only for 100 yards. This is actually pretty normal stroke count for me if I'm sprinting. I'm usually around 20-22/ 25 yards and can sprint a 100 at just over 1 min...maybe even under 1, but I haven't done a fresh sprint in a LONG time.

Maybe I'll give this a try tomorrow morning and see how it goes.

Much, if not the essential core of T.I, is about learning to be streamlined. That's what the drills in the program are all about.

What does Mr. Hall say in his original post about being streamlined? Here it is:

"My study with the velocity meter doing freestyle concurs that it is these two positions that consistently show the highest and lowest velocities of the stroke cycle in freestyle (though I was seeing more like a 30 to 40% drop, not 50%). But

it is not because of the power out the back that we see the speed highest in this position. It is because it is by far the position of least drag (most streamlined).

The propulsive power in this position actually is derived mostly from the left arm out in front and the kick, with little or no power coming from the end of the arm pull."

Sounds like Mr. Hall would be in agreement with TI.

Probably someone will comment that TI does not encourage stroke rates at high frequency as mentioned in Mr. Hall's post. Not so.

TI encourages learning to increase the stroke rate, while maintaining a streamlined position.

It seems to me that what Mr. Hall has said so far would not be foreign to anyone using TI.

This is very interesting but I am not sure I understand. Are you still supposed to stretch forward after your hand enters the water, but then as you do your pull you "stop" your stroke earlier, so that you can get your hand out of the water and back "in front" again? Or is he saying to not stretch forward as much as we probably all do now?

The former. He's advocating the stretched out arm to facilitate streamlining the body position and to initiate the recovery sooner to facilitate the front quadrant power position.

Thanks Bryan- that's what I thought. Makes sense to me. I chuckled at your "somewhere a little TI died" comment.

Why do you bother posting in one? I wasn't aware Mr. Hall needs to keep to your schedule.

Have a question though,

I'm following along with the logic or science of how this higher stroke count and method that Gary Hall, Sr. is talking about can make you swim faster, but is this the best technique to use to long-distance or endurance swimming?

I've read the last few posts from folks that they can hold around 80+ stroke count for a 100 yd. sprint but then that's about it.  I can understand how this could be a good technique for a short distance race, but is this also useful for longer distances, such as 1 mile, 2 miles, etc ....

Does it just take some practice to be able to sustain a high stroke count for 45-90 minutes or longer?

I was under the impression that he was talking about a drill, not a consistant swim at 80 stoke/100 all the time.

However, according to my wife, I'm always wrong, so that may well be the case here too.

This thread makes my shoulders hurt just looking at it.  I've been a kick driven swimmer for a long time.  Which works in sprint swimming events but not in distance stuff or triathlons.  I also have a long, slow stroke.  I've been trying to speed up my stroke recently and it wears on you.  Like most any significant change.  Start doing short sets focusing on this aspect and then increase the length of them until you get to the point that you are doing the entire workout (minus the easy/recovery stuff) that way and THEN you can think about swimming that way in a long course tri.  It makes perfect sense for top-level swimmers (which some people certainly are) but give your body lots of time to adapt to such a change and do it gradually because overuse injuries in the shoulder are very prevalent in swimming.