Obama endorses same-sex marriage (Page 3)

When I got engaged, we went to the clerk of the circuit court to apply for a license.

When we married, a notary officiated and signed the license.

When I got divorced, I filed for dissolution with the clerk of the circuit court.

No religious entity was involved. I'm sure this has been repeated by millions of people.

I haven't read all the thread yet but if he is so pro-gay marriage why not come out BEFORE the NC vote?  Perhaps he could have swayed some people.  I heard on the radio that a majority of the counties that Obama won in the election voted FOR the amendment.

I wish NC had not voted the way it did, but honestly I don't believe the president's statement today was anything more than politics.

FWIW- When Obama was born, his parents' interracial marriage was illegal in 22 states.

Yay states rights!

I'd like to get you all in a room, have a few drinks, and then open this topic.  Now that...would be priceless.

Just curious friends, if we didn't allow people a vote and just let each of you decide, would that be better?

Thank you. 

Marriage has not always been a religious entity... in fact from a christian perspective, marriage is part of what is called the first use of the law. It belongs to all nations/tribes/political entities/etc. as a means of keeping order. Marriage has been understood to be part of the political realm. 

Some sort of marital relationship has existed across borders and peoples and religions.

A traditional theological understanding of marriage actually has the couple as the primary actors, whether they make their vows in a church or in a JP's office. That a clergy member officiates is the purview of the state. The state grants the authority for the clergy member to act as the state's witness. I hate acting as an arm of the state when I officiate at weddings.  I would rather simply be present to help the couple understand what their vows mean for daily living as christians.   

Aside from taxes why should the state or the federal government have any say on marriage?

Because the right to marry is what will allow me to visit my partner and make decisions for her should something horrible happen and she end up in the hospital.  A marriage gives more rights then taxes. 

For the same reason that the state recognizes, records and adjudicates all contracts, property rights and familial obligations.

If someone stated Romney's not a Christian, they wouldn't be alone.  I don't know what is or isn't a Christian, but I do know back in '07-'08 I worked with a born-again Christian who told me that Mormons are not Christians.  She and her congregation were not and are not alone.  Personally, I could care less what a person's religion is or isn't.  I think it's unfortunate there are folks who wouldn't vote for Romney because he's a Mormon...but then again there are more folks out there who didn't/wouldn't vote for Obama because he is black.

The earlier statement about Obama losing the African-American vote because of this issue...the drop will likely be negligible.  It's not a race thing, it's a Party-affiliation thing.  Gore carried 91% of the African-American vote, Kerry 90%, and I think Obama's was 93%.  There was no huge spike of African-American voters supporting Obama...that was just the Right playin' a little bit of the reverse racism card.

Where this announcement hurts politically is in the working class, mostly white lower middle to middle class areas.  I don't think this issue is as "hot-button" in the urban areas as it is suburbs and the countrysides.  Battleground midwestern states will likely be the biggest casualties for Obama's campaign.

I am not certain, but I also think gay marriage is not as embraced in the Hispanic community...but the million dollar question is, will this social issue trump the candidates' stances on immigration issues?

It's all so complex...but my knee-jerk reaction is I still think May 9th is a great day for the United States...but a bad day politically for the president.

I disagree.

Jesus seems to say that the nature of what marriage is
predates positive law. 

In Matthew 19:1-12 he says:

1. And it came to pass when Jesus had ended these words, he departed from Galilee and came into the coasts of Judea, beyond Jordan. 
2 And great multitudes followed him: and he healed them there. 
3 And there came to him the Pharisees tempting him, saying: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 
4 Who answering, said to them: Have you not read, that he who made man from the beginning, made them male and female? And he said: 
5 For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh. 
6 Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man put asunder. 
7 They say to him: Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away? 
8 He says to them: Because Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 
9 And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, commits adultery. 
10 His disciples say unto him: If the case of a man with his wife be so, it is not expedient to marry. 
11 Who said to them: All men take not this word, but they to whom it is given. 
12 For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mothers womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it.

In his Theology of the Body, John Paul II has proposed that in Mt 19:4-6, Jesus is referring to
Genesis 1:27

 27 And God created man to his own image; to the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

And Genesis 2:24

24 Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh. 

The Pope suggests that before there was even positive law, there was a thing called marriage.
It existed before even our ability to name it.
It requires two agents, a man and a woman,
agents who themselves come from a mother and a father 
who upon entering into this state called marriage become "one flesh".

Jesus is teaching that this state is a covenant, not a contract.
In other words, it is a sacrament.
Therefore, it cannot be dissolved.

He also points out that not all are able to enter into the state.
The eunuch for example is not capable of it. 
That shows that the normative formulation of marriage holds up fecundity as its foundation. 

Can't get it up, can't get it on, can't get married.
That's what Jesus is teaching.
He doesn't seem to be concerned about the "social justice" aspect of the eunuch's situation. 

Jesus tells us that it is only because of our hard hearts that Mosaic law even allowed for divorce.

Jesus' teaching about what marriage actually is remains quite clear.
Our hard hearts also seem to remain. 

I asked for clarification on that too. 

Can you back up the highlighted portion of your post with data? Just the second half of it if you don't mind.

I understand that Pr. Obama and Mitt Romney are both Christians.

The one Christian in all of this who bothers me is VP Biden.
Based on his earlier comments, he either does not understand his faith as a Catholic,
or is willfully and publicly dissenting from it. 

Both possibilities are troubling.

A bit of clarification/correction...

Kerry got 88% of the black vote http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epoll... got 90%

Obama got 93%-95% (depending on the source)

In 2008 the % of blacks who voted increased by 4%. In 2004 60% of eligible blacks voted where in 2008 65% voted.  The white % stayed about the same. So the percentages might not be much different bu the sheer #s were.  So to say blacks were not a big influence in his election is not true.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/21/us/politics/21vote.html

I was told just last week by someone who seems like a really nice guy, around 40 years old or so,  owns a successful business, Catholic father of 4 children, has a great positive outlook, always smiling, works long hours, that President Obama wasn't born in this country and is a Muslim.

I just didn't know what to say to that.

Wonder who such people will vote for when facing such a decision? I faced a similar decision in 08 with obama and McCain. My problem was not the race or religion of either candidate, rather the lack of respect I had for both men. I held my nose and voted for McCain because his Veep had better hair.