4 ex-Armstrong Teammates to Testify (Page 3)

Should we call Barry Bonds the Home Run Champion?

Winning 7 TDF's was a huge athletic feat, setting LA up as the greatest cyclist of all time.  If we find out he was not clean.....should he still be the greatest of all time? 

I'm asking......how does this era of sports get dealt with over time?  I don't really know how I feel about it. 

Sports Illustrated just did a great piece about steroids in baseball, and how those who chose not to use them were passed by those who did use steroids, and probably wouldn't have made the big league without them, leaving those who didn't behind in the minor leagues.  Is that the case in cycling?  Did we miss some great riders who didn't dope because they couldn't compete with those who did?

And if you don't care at all, I get that too.

I went back and re read the article, and yes, you are correct, I must have read that wrong!  

I thought that the Feds can give information to the USADA at their discretion.  I think the USADA was waiting to see what evidence they were going to be able to obtain before bringing up this action. 

If Hincapie testified, which I have not read or heard of anything he said, which is one of the reasons I respect him so much.  He doesn't talk about it publicly.  You are right, if he says something it is an open and shut case.  The community would have to finally accept that Armstrong doped.  

And I have heard the comment too, but what shock waves or signals is it going to send...

Lance doped then, stripping titles now does nothing...meaning everyone already made their money off the cash cow.

Landis doped and they stripped his title. Contador doped and they stripped his title. Cyclist know if they get caught they get their title taken. But ya, now they will know that if the USADA has a vendetta against you, which all of do not have except Lance, then they will do what ever they can to go after your past career.

I don't get the message.

Over the years, as the doping era unfolded in sports, I have more admiration for those who have admitted their usage,  if for no other reason than to save us from all this crap.  Increasingly, as much as I like him, LA pizzes me off.  You can blame USADA if you like, but Armstrong himself could end this rather quickly.

Eddie Merckx still has a great hold of "Greatest cyclist of all time" claim.  Lance certainly has a hold on the "Greatest TDF cyclist of all time".

First Bonds still had to connect with the ball. His muscles had to put it over the wall, but he still was a great hitter before the roids.

Lance changed the way cyclists ride the TDF. Sure he is a gifted athlete... like he claims, he was gifted all his life and NEVER had an unusual increase in performance... But he was a single purpose rider. His entire year was only about winning TDF. Merckx rode to win every race by comparison. So did other riders.

Also, Lance had a crap ton of money. He hired the best team to support him. Every year his team was the strongest in the Tour. He rode and trained the course every year. NOBODY did that back then... EVERYBODY does that now. Ulrich was second to him twice... Hans was a known off season partier that came into the Tour out of shape and got better during the tour. If he had only dedicated himself to winning he would have at least taken one of then. One year when LA was sick everybody just gave him a pass. When they realized he was off and vulnerable it was too late. Closest finish ever. Had they pressed him early he would have cracked.

"Best of All Time" titles are pointless. But when you talk legacy and look back at it all, we come to our own conclusions. I find it very hard to continue to defend LA knowing now the doping that was involved with that era. Also knowing that they all basically doped to a level and not over, and that the best drug of all EPO was not reliably detectable till later.

What I have ZERO problems defending is that LA won 7 TDF titles in a row because he worked harder than every other professional cyclist to do so. He is exceptionally gifted athletically, one of the best ever measured. (So was Indurain, he won 5) And we all know he is one of the toughest competitors, mentally focused, and tenacious riders ever. Not to mention an excellent tactician. That is how he won 7 titles.

To strip those title now, and give them to other dopers that did not work as hard is ridiculous. His legacy will remain intact as a cyclist. Nobody ever thought he was a great guy. His standing as a jerk will hold. Most extreme competitive types are. His reputation will be tarnished as a liar and it will hurt his foundation that was built off that truth/lie. That is the real looser in all this.

I agree with this. Still, I am disappointed at people even given any Credability to any newspaper that says "sources"say. I don't even know why I have to say this , "NO PROOF HAS BEEN GIVEN YET ANYWHERE." Untill there is he is inocent-period!

I just keep thinking  I would never want to be judged so; because a :Dutch " Newspaper " says>>>> whatever.

People are so quick to judge others ,especially quick to judge high acheivers , as if yes! this is why I sit on my and don't achiev!-(sorry for that)-

The thing is USADA doesn't have to have prrof , just an opinion and a decision. Who among us would want this , to have someone go and say can't prove it but we think you did.

Also The new paper could easily be anarm of USADA to stir up crap to see what comes up. - Geeze would we want to be judged like this??

BS

IF YOU ARE GOOD ENOUGH THEY WILL CHOOSE YOU. aLL THINGS BEING EQUAL.

Exactly... amphetamines have been used in sports as long as they have been around. The drugs have changed, but athletes using drugs to increase performance is nothing new. Lance didn't ride in the "drug era", he rode in the HGH, EPO era... there will be many more.

What's funny is that there are definite parallels with Barry Bonds and Lance...yet, there are many more Lance sympathizers than Bonds sympathizers.  Being the face of LiveStrong has benefitted Lance immensely.

Just to clarify my comment.  What I was trying to say is that when I saw a Garmin rider go down, my immediate reaction was "I hope it was one of those guys instead of one of the others."  Assuming the Dutch report of a leak was correct, 3 dopers who get deals for ratting on someone for doing what they did themselves would in my mind deserve the road rash worse than the other members of their team who presumably are innocent of doping.

Lots of assumptions there, but it was my gut reaction to the crash.

And yes, I did just quote myself...

ya, grrr.  [hand slap] don't do that anymore!

Which is even more ironic... because it was due to his cancer he got so much scrutiny. Basically nobody believed he could come back after cancer so soon to win the tour. So unlike many other riders that just go along riding until they get caught, Lance had the spotlight on him from day one. The accusations flew from day one.

So what is he supposed to do, duh... deny it like every other rider before him. Then the whole Livestrong thing, then one of the most incredible athletic streaks in history... and here we are. Was Indurain hounded like this after his first victory, second? How about Merckx? Ullrich wasn't put in the spot light when he was the 4th youngest rider to ever win the tour, he just got praise about how many more he was going to rack up. No, just a stupid American that won the tour with one ball.

Just google biological passport.

As for the rules... it is all agreed upon by the athletes when they sign their name. Point is, USADA isn't saying it, they are saying they have proof. We just don't know what that is yet.. other than all the stuff that has floated around forever, and the passport.

I may get cooked here, but I'm a Bonds sympathizer.  My parents knew his dad and uncle growing-up in Riverside, CA.  He was the best baseball player in the steroid era and Baseball made a killing off of his use of PEDs.  But when he was going for the record, baseball, congress, etc started to say "I'm shocked! Shocked!"

IMO His bad attitude stemmed from 1) he had no relationship with his father so he always had a chip on his shoulder, 2) he was the best player in every league he ever played until McGuire and Sosa started juicing and jacking, and 3) the media was a lot more lenient on Sosa and McGuire (and still is) than on Barry because it didn't become about the juice until Barry was the one going for the record. 

Lance had all the same points as Barry, but he created Livestrong. 

Lance is the best of the doping era whether he doped or not.  Barry is the best of the steroid era.

Best line in the thread so far.

Nice post.  I still think Bonds was the best in his sport before he started juicing.  Yeah, the juice gave him the home runs, but prior to him becoming an incredible hulk busting out 70 homers, he was one of the fastest, slickest fielding, power hitters in the game...no baseball player of his era was more well-rounded on the field.

I think powerman mentioned Lance being under more scrutiny than the previous champions...wouldn't you say there was good reason?  I love that he beat cancer...it's an amazing story.  But, where there's this much smoke, I'm sorry, there's fire.  Some call it a vendetta...I call it doing what's right.  (and yeah, what's right aint always clear cut as jmk pointed out, deals for current dopers to turn on the big former champion doper, so that old dopers get championships passed to them...yucky, but it's still the best way to roll imo)