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2013-06-03 9:06 AM
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2013-06-03 9:06 AM
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Edited by Fred D 2013-06-03 9:08 AM
2013-06-03 9:12 AM
in reply to: Philothea0806

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Subject: RE: Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group CLOSED!
Originally posted by Philothea0806Finished my first Sprint distance (the other two were super sprints). Overall the distance wasn't bad. I got some kind of lower back pain that slowed me during the run. I didn't have alot of hope for the swim (just don't drown) and despite getting water in my goggles on the worst possible side at the start I was 5 min faster than I was planning and way better than the last race (200m/7:56 vs 600/14:48; still too much breaststroke vs freestyle and it didn't that a massive cold front with wind/rain slammed down on us halfway through the swim.) It stayed pretty much the whole bike course and since I have never biked in rain and I couldn't see (glasses fogged up and rain pelting me in the eyes without) I was much slower at the start and on the turns (I was hoping for a PR but between the rain and the 20+ mph wind the whole 2nd half of the course I was about 2 mph slower than my last race.) The rain let up the last mile of the bike and at least the front made the run cool. I barely drank that much water until the run.I learned alot and I was trying to be under 1:30 and ended up at 1:29 (more due to the bike than anything). Well, that was good enough for 3rd in my division - Athena. Hopefully this will be the last race I qualify for that division at the current weight class.Most impressive thing I saw was a pregnant lady doing the run portion for a relay(and beating me). She had an extra strap around her stomach for support, she must have been 7-8 months pregnant. Hope everyone else had a great weekend. I get a 6 week break from races to concentration on swimming and adding distance to my bike and running. Sprint - mid July, quarter Tri (1000m swim 25m bike and 10k run for the beginning of August, olympic distance for beginning of Sept and the HIM end of October.)
Great job in tough conditions, way to go!
2013-06-03 10:11 AM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group
Originally posted by Fred D

My back continues to get better! I'm riding with a friend at 6am tomorrow for 3+ hrs. Very happy about this. I've been behind on the grop due to injury and work stress so I apologize but I really want to get back to gearing.... Could EVERYONE please chime in with what gearing they run and what kind of bike split they expect to run in their next HIM?


I run a trek speed concept 7.0 with stock compact crank (50/34) and stock 11-28 cassette. As for my predicted bike split lol....Well biking is still my weakest discipline of the sport but it is what I am putting the most training into for this race since my race is around 2,500- 3,000ft of elevation. I am hoping for around a 3:15 bike split but I will be happy with anything under 3:30. I picked a hard course for my first HIM
2013-06-03 10:11 AM
in reply to: tri808

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Subject: RE: Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group CLOSED!
Jason- I am glad you finished and survived the race. It sounded like some brutal conditions out there. Great job!!
2013-06-03 10:15 AM
in reply to: Philothea0806

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Subject: RE: Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group CLOSED!
Originally posted by Philothea0806

Finished my first Sprint distance (the other two were super sprints). Overall the distance wasn't bad. I got some kind of lower back pain that slowed me during the run. I didn't have alot of hope for the swim (just don't drown) and despite getting water in my goggles on the worst possible side at the start I was 5 min faster than I was planning and way better than the last race (200m/7:56 vs 600/14:48; still too much breaststroke vs freestyle and it didn't that a massive cold front with wind/rain slammed down on us halfway through the swim.) It stayed pretty much the whole bike course and since I have never biked in rain and I couldn't see (glasses fogged up and rain pelting me in the eyes without) I was much slower at the start and on the turns (I was hoping for a PR but between the rain and the 20+ mph wind the whole 2nd half of the course I was about 2 mph slower than my last race.) The rain let up the last mile of the bike and at least the front made the run cool. I barely drank that much water until the run.
I learned alot and I was trying to be under 1:30 and ended up at 1:29 (more due to the bike than anything). Well, that was good enough for 3rd in my division - Athena. Hopefully this will be the last race I qualify for that division at the current weight class.
Most impressive thing I saw was a pregnant lady doing the run portion for a relay(and beating me). She had an extra strap around her stomach for support, she must have been 7-8 months pregnant.

Hope everyone else had a great weekend. I get a 6 week break from races to concentration on swimming and adding distance to my bike and running. Sprint - mid July, quarter Tri (1000m swim 25m bike and 10k run for the beginning of August, olympic distance for beginning of Sept and the HIM end of October.)



Congrats on your first sprint distance finish and 3rd place AG!!! I also do not like biking in the rain and I had to do it at my first race this season which caused me to have a slower bike time. Not much you can do about it but its good that you took the turns slow, too many people try and take them fast like they would on dry pavement and wind up wrecking.


2013-06-03 10:38 AM
in reply to: Philothea0806

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Subject: RE: Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group CLOSED!

Originally posted by Philothea0806 Finished my first Sprint distance (the other two were super sprints). Overall the distance wasn't bad. I got some kind of lower back pain that slowed me during the run. I didn't have alot of hope for the swim (just don't drown) and despite getting water in my goggles on the worst possible side at the start I was 5 min faster than I was planning and way better than the last race (200m/7:56 vs 600/14:48; still too much breaststroke vs freestyle and it didn't that a massive cold front with wind/rain slammed down on us halfway through the swim.) It stayed pretty much the whole bike course and since I have never biked in rain and I couldn't see (glasses fogged up and rain pelting me in the eyes without) I was much slower at the start and on the turns (I was hoping for a PR but between the rain and the 20+ mph wind the whole 2nd half of the course I was about 2 mph slower than my last race.) The rain let up the last mile of the bike and at least the front made the run cool. I barely drank that much water until the run. I learned alot and I was trying to be under 1:30 and ended up at 1:29 (more due to the bike than anything). Well, that was good enough for 3rd in my division - Athena. Hopefully this will be the last race I qualify for that division at the current weight class. Most impressive thing I saw was a pregnant lady doing the run portion for a relay(and beating me). She had an extra strap around her stomach for support, she must have been 7-8 months pregnant. Hope everyone else had a great weekend. I get a 6 week break from races to concentration on swimming and adding distance to my bike and running. Sprint - mid July, quarter Tri (1000m swim 25m bike and 10k run for the beginning of August, olympic distance for beginning of Sept and the HIM end of October.)

Congrats on a great race in difficult conditions! That's quite an improvement on the swim. I like riding in the rain when it's warm, but I definitely can't see with glasses on in the rain.

I have a compact crank and an 11-28 cassette. My regular training routes and the races I'm signed up for this year are all hilly enough for me to use all the gears. If I were doing a flat race I would probably switch to a 12-25. I would like to get under 3:10 on the bike for my HIM in September.  I'll really have to up my training mileage and intensity over the next couple of months to reach that goal.

2013-06-03 11:07 AM
in reply to: amschrod

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Subject: RE: Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group CLOSED!
Ok, with all the talk about cranks and cassettes I have to ask a total bike dope question: what does it all mean? I know what the numbers represent, but how do they impact your riding. For example, I see some people say if they were riding flat races they would use x cassette or others saying a compact crank with a certain cassette is a good combo, but I don't know why those things are true. Anyone care to give me a primer on the subject?
2013-06-03 11:47 AM
in reply to: amd723

Subject: RE: Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group CLOSED!
http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp...

Forgot to link my RR. It's long...you've been warned.

As far as gearing discussions...I use the same gearing on both my tri and road bike. 50/34 up front and 11-26 in back. If I'm doing some insane climbing, I'll switch to 11-28 in the rear.
2013-06-03 1:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group CLOSED!

Originally posted by tri808 http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp... Forgot to link my RR. It's long...you've been warned. As far as gearing discussions...I use the same gearing on both my tri and road bike. 50/34 up front and 11-26 in back. If I'm doing some insane climbing, I'll switch to 11-28 in the rear.

Great RR Jason!  Sounds like you made the best out of some crazy tough conditions!  I like the pee on the run part of the RR..

When you were biking by RPE after your HR monitor and Power meter did not work, at what level did you perceive it to be? out of 10?  And looking back do you think you should have dialed it back even more?

Another question for you and the group.  After your first A race of the season, do you tend to dial it back for a bit or just keep pushing hard.  Seems like some are proponents of getting back to easy base building to start out the second half of the year.



Edited by bgeyeguy 2013-06-03 2:00 PM
2013-06-03 2:49 PM
in reply to: bgeyeguy

Subject: RE: Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group CLOSED!
Originally posted by bgeyeguy

Originally posted by tri808 http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp... Forgot to link my RR. It's long...you've been warned. As far as gearing discussions...I use the same gearing on both my tri and road bike. 50/34 up front and 11-26 in back. If I'm doing some insane climbing, I'll switch to 11-28 in the rear.

Great RR Jason!  Sounds like you made the best out of some crazy tough conditions!  I like the pee on the run part of the RR..

When you were biking by RPE after your HR monitor and Power meter did not work, at what level did you perceive it to be? out of 10?  And looking back do you think you should have dialed it back even more?

Another question for you and the group.  After your first A race of the season, do you tend to dial it back for a bit or just keep pushing hard.  Seems like some are proponents of getting back to easy base building to start out the second half of the year.




When going by RPE, I felt ok the first 30 miles or so. Now that I think about it, I used up a lot of energy trying to stay legal in the draft zone. I was slowly picking off riders on the climb to Hawi, but since we were only going about 12-16 mph I do remember putting in a bit more effort to make sure I completed the pass within 20 seconds from when I entered the draft zone. Maybe a lesson learned for future races that if you know you can't make a pass in 20 seconds using your current effort...maybe it's okay to sit back a little instead of upping the effort.

I will say though that from what I saw, everyone was trying to ride clean. I know there were people in the penatly tents, but I didn't see any blatant drafting with my own eyes. I know a few people repassed me without dropping all the way back out of my draft zone, which is still considered drafting...but no blatant wheel sucking.


2013-06-03 3:12 PM
in reply to: dmbfan4life20

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Subject: RE: Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group CLOSED!
Originally posted by dmbfan4life20
Originally posted by Philothea0806Finished my first Sprint distance (the other two were super sprints). Overall the distance wasn't bad. I got some kind of lower back pain that slowed me during the run. I didn't have alot of hope for the swim (just don't drown) and despite getting water in my goggles on the worst possible side at the start I was 5 min faster than I was planning and way better than the last race (200m/7:56 vs 600/14:48; still too much breaststroke vs freestyle and it didn't that a massive cold front with wind/rain slammed down on us halfway through the swim.) It stayed pretty much the whole bike course and since I have never biked in rain and I couldn't see (glasses fogged up and rain pelting me in the eyes without) I was much slower at the start and on the turns (I was hoping for a PR but between the rain and the 20+ mph wind the whole 2nd half of the course I was about 2 mph slower than my last race.) The rain let up the last mile of the bike and at least the front made the run cool. I barely drank that much water until the run.I learned alot and I was trying to be under 1:30 and ended up at 1:29 (more due to the bike than anything). Well, that was good enough for 3rd in my division - Athena. Hopefully this will be the last race I qualify for that division at the current weight class.Most impressive thing I saw was a pregnant lady doing the run portion for a relay(and beating me). She had an extra strap around her stomach for support, she must have been 7-8 months pregnant. Hope everyone else had a great weekend. I get a 6 week break from races to concentration on swimming and adding distance to my bike and running. Sprint - mid July, quarter Tri (1000m swim 25m bike and 10k run for the beginning of August, olympic distance for beginning of Sept and the HIM end of October.)
Congrats on your first sprint distance finish and 3rd place AG!!! I also do not like biking in the rain and I had to do it at my first race this season which caused me to have a slower bike time. Not much you can do about it but its good that you took the turns slow, too many people try and take them fast like they would on dry pavement and wind up wrecking.
X2. Sounds like a good tough first experience! Hopefully all future races will feel like gravy
2013-06-03 6:23 PM
in reply to: kimmax

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Subject: RE: Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group CLOSED!
Question for the group about heart rate zones.....

Are your zones the same for biking and running? I feel like 145bpm on the run is a solid Z2 effort maybe low Z3 but on the bike it feels like Z4 and I have not really been able to sustain a HR higher then 152 on the bike. I am curious as to what others think or have experienced.
2013-06-03 6:43 PM
in reply to: dmbfan4life20

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Subject: RE: Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group CLOSED!
The articles section here on BT has some great info on this, and since I don't know enough to give an answer, here's an article I dug up from the library here. Generally, biking HR zones are lower than running, so it says.

http://beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=53
2013-06-03 7:31 PM
in reply to: dmbfan4life20

Subject: RE: Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group CLOSED!
In general, most people will see higher HRs for running compared to biking in the same zone.

I'm a slight outlier to that generalization. My bike and run HR is about the same for similar efforts. I've done cycling time trials that last about an hour as well as running races that last about an hour for me and both had an average HR of 182. Certainly not the norm.
2013-06-03 11:49 PM
in reply to: tri808

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Subject: RE: Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group CLOSED!
I hope everyone is having a great start of their race season. I'm neck deep in kids' swim team these days, but had a great ride tonight. Normal Monday ride was a fundraiser for stroke awareness in honor of the co-owner of my LBS. It got a tad more sporty than usual, and was fun as could be.

I've spoken about it previously with this group, but I'm really lucky that my bike club is awesome and my LBS is awesome. For someone that's only been riding for a couple of years, I'm incredibly happy about this. I'm currently riding a loaner rear wheel from this guy's bike. He is a former pro that raced against LeMond and Armstrong. Before it hit the fan, he was a humble LeMond supporter. More people should have listened to him, including me. Here's the article: http://www.thegoodride.org/. It's the Sheehan article.




2013-06-04 10:07 AM
in reply to: tri808

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Subject: RE: Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group CLOSED!

Had an awesome ride this weekend with my cycling buddy.  43 miles combining city and country, flats, rollers and some small but challenging hills - with him pushing the pace.  He's teaching me a lot about cycling and about riding with others.  Here's what it looked like: 

Morgan Hill Ride

When it was over, I was ready for it to be over, but felt good about how it went.  Actually, just before the peak of that hill at mile 33, I think I would have been happy for it to have been overSmile.

I do have a new issue which is a hot spot in the area of my left sit bone.  This is the first time that it has ever shown up and came after the long hill ride the previous weekend (2200' over 8 miles) with a relatively new pair of shorts.  Don't know if it was the hill climb or the new shorts, but could use some advice on how to deal with it.  The spot is not an open wound, just red, a bit puffy and tender.  I've been applying neosporin regularly in case there is an open spot (it is kinda hard to get a good look at) to prevent any infection and to keep the skin from drying out.  I've got about a 60 mile ride on Thursday (talked the same guy into coming up and riding the course with me) and want to minimize any further issues there.  Current plan is to apply vaseline to the reddened site and liberally lube up the chamois, and to make sure I stand up and pedal more frequently.  What else would you suggest?

2013-06-04 12:00 PM
in reply to: TTom

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Subject: RE: Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group CLOSED!
I'm in near full panic about my HIM in 11 days. Ho-lee crap on a stick. With the injured hammy, and minimul run training, the great unknown of the final 13.1 miles is really weighing on me. Swim & bike should be OK. Word for the day will be "conservative".
2013-06-04 1:43 PM
in reply to: Mike_D

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Subject: RE: Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group CLOSED!
Originally posted by Mike_D

I'm in near full panic about my HIM in 11 days. Ho-lee crap on a stick. With the injured hammy, and minimul run training, the great unknown of the final 13.1 miles is really weighing on me. Swim & bike should be OK. Word for the day will be "conservative".



Just relax. You've done the swim and bike before. The run doesn't have any steep hills so it shouldn't stress the hammy. Just set a more conservative pace out of the gate. The last tenth of a mile is one grass and part of it downhill. With a tweaked hammy be more careful there than anywhere else. Smile a lot and enjoy yourself. It makes it all go by faster.
2013-06-04 4:34 PM
in reply to: amd723

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Subject: RE: Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group CLOSED!

Originally posted by amd723 Ok, with all the talk about cranks and cassettes I have to ask a total bike dope question: what does it all mean? I know what the numbers represent, but how do they impact your riding. For example, I see some people say if they were riding flat races they would use x cassette or others saying a compact crank with a certain cassette is a good combo, but I don't know why those things are true. Anyone care to give me a primer on the subject?

Bumping this question because I'd to learn more about it as well. I just ride with the stock components that came with my Felt B-16.

2013-06-04 5:51 PM
in reply to: KateTri1

Subject: RE: Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group CLOSED!
Originally posted by KateTri1

Originally posted by amd723 Ok, with all the talk about cranks and cassettes I have to ask a total bike dope question: what does it all mean? I know what the numbers represent, but how do they impact your riding. For example, I see some people say if they were riding flat races they would use x cassette or others saying a compact crank with a certain cassette is a good combo, but I don't know why those things are true. Anyone care to give me a primer on the subject?

Bumping this question because I'd to learn more about it as well. I just ride with the stock components that came with my Felt B-16.




Basically the goal is to give yourself the optimal range of gears that you will use. On a hilly course, the priority becomes having enough easy gears so that you don't burn yourself out on the climbs. On flatter courses, the goal becomes to have you gears spaced much more evenly.

Take the following examples.

A really hilly course I would probably use a 50/34 up front and a 11/28 cassette in the rear. The reason being is that I'll likely need the 34x28 and 34x25 gear combinations to climb up the steep sections. Because the rear gears are spaced so far appart between 11 and 28, I may lose some "in between" gears, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make since climbing comfortably is much more important.

A really flat course I would probably use a 50/34 with a 11/23 cassette in the rear. Without any major hills, the 34x23 gear combination should be fine for any small climbs, and having my cassette nice and "tight" allows me to have gear changes with a smaller jump. Some people think they would prefer a 53/39 crank on flat courses, but if you think about it...how often do you think you'll be riding in the 53x11 gear combination on a flat course? Most people only need that gear if they are bombing downhill. If the course is flat, there are no downhills to bomb.

If I'm road racing, and I expect there to be a sprint finish on a flat section, this is the ONLY time I personally would prefer a 53/39 front and 11-26 rear. 39x26 is likely enough gearing to keep up with the pack on climbs, and I'll need the 53x11 for the sprint finish. Since most people don't road race (this is a triathlon forum), 53x11 is almost an unecessary gear unless your a really strong rider and your preferred cadence is low (like Fred).


2013-06-04 7:35 PM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group

Originally posted by Fred D My back continues to get better! I'm riding with a friend at 6am tomorrow for 3+ hrs. Very happy about this. I've been behind on the grop due to injury and work stress so I apologize but I really want to get back to gearing.... Could EVERYONE please chime in with what gearing they run and what kind of bike split they expect to run in their next HIM?

My road bike is 52/36 and 11/28 (I believe).

Tri bike is 53/39 and I just switched from 11/28 to 11/25 for Sunday's tri (rolling hills - no crankers).

No idea yet what my HIM split will be!  Just did ~22.3mph for a 15 mile rolling hill course, but I have some work to do to figure out the longer course speeds and such.

Hope your back is now completely behind you.  Wink

Matt

2013-06-04 8:13 PM
in reply to: tri808

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Subject: RE: Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group CLOSED!

Jason, thanks for the comments on gearing.  Helpful, indeed.  Personally, I'm only on the 53/39 on my tri bike because that's what it came with (and I've only had it a couple weeks).  I've been trying it in the hills, though, and it's not too bad.  As for the higher gears, I don't spin out, as I'm uncomfortable with the speed using the 53/11 at about the same cadence that I'd spin out (read as, more than fast enough for me, but I do get into that gear every now and then).  Might look at a mid-compact, but need more to figure it out...

As for your RR (I posted to the RR itself on a general "thank you for the RR," as it was very helpful), how do you pee on the run?  No, seriously?  Do you just go in your kit, or do you bust out the junk on the fly?  I'm not sure if that would be easier, but it's a skill I need to learn either way.  

Thanks!
Matt 

2013-06-04 8:27 PM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Subject: RE: Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group CLOSED!

OK - back for my third and last post of the night (honest).

Finished the first tri of the season this weekend past (and third since coming back to tri's after ~20 years last Fall).  It was a longish sprint (0.5 / 15 / 5 miles), one I signed up for only last Wednesday, and the day after a family/local 5k (in which I placed 15 OA and 3 AG - happy with that - and the family got 3 podiums and a PR among them!).  RR is here:  http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/RaceLog/races-view-container.asp?raceid=248548  

Not sure how to make that a link - sorry!

Hot and windy (not Honu, but 20-ish), but a beautiful day, and I convinced one of my oldest/best friends to run it with me.  I did far better than I expected (15 OA), with solid (for me) paces on the swim and bike (and this was the first race on the new-to-me tri bike), and an average run.  Thought maybe I overdid the bike, even though it felt fine and my HR stayed at the edge of threshold (lower than I even wanted: 157 with target of 160), but I think the race the day before, the hills and the HEAT had something to do with it, too.  Smile

Overall, hot and humid, but a solid result for me and a good test of fitness going into my Oly's.  Didn't tell me much about the HIM coming up after them, but that's a different beast to be handled in a bit.  I think I can pick up the run pace with a better taper and more fitness on the bike - so that's what I'm going to try.

One side note - I was 7th in my AG.  15 OA, but 6 of them were 45-49 and 2 or 3 were 40-44.  The others that beat me were in their 20's mostly.  How messed up is that?  Some fast old dudes around here - I have my work cut out for me!

 

To Mike-D - good luck at the Patriot!  Just meter out the run so you don't get hurt, and enjoy the day.

Matt

2013-06-05 7:57 AM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Subject: RE: Fred D and Jason's (Tri808) Half Ironman Mentor Group CLOSED!

Good morning, everyone, just checking in! Rode the loop part of the IMWI course last weekend. After reading Jason's detailed response re: gearing and after riding the course, I definitely understand why my 53/39 and 11-25 setup is not ideal! But the course - super fun, very fast downhills with some tight turns at the bottom. Lots of climbs and I gave my gears a workout. Being June, it's pretty windy here right now and at one point I even had to downgrade a gear while pedaling downhill bc the wind was so strong! I certainly wasn't fast, but I was able to do all of the climbs, no parts where it was completely miserable. My skills, though, were really lacking on the downhills. Don't have the confidence or the handling know-how to navigate those. 

Jason - congrats on Hono 70.3! Seemed like a very tough day out there, as evidenced by the pro times, and I think it's awesome that you were able to maintain a good spirit and encourage those around you

Stacie - great job on finishing your first sprint and for finishing third! Re: the lower back pain - has this happened before? Also sounds like you had a tough day with the rain.

Fred - glad your back is getting better. How did the ride go on your TT bike?

Mike - Is today any better? Take a breather and relax! Control the things you can and try not to worry about what you can't control. The unknown is just that - something you can't control. The injured hamstring is what it is, and while it's not ideal, you trained as you could. If your mind is wandering bc you are entering that taper madness period, try to think about things that will ensure a good race: Go over your nutrition plans, review your goals, visualize finishing strong and happy.

Matt - nice job on two races this weekend!

Is that everyone? Laughing

Hope everyone's training is going well this week. I had a trainer ride this a.m., which I ended up bagging it after my WU. My HR wouldn't go anywhere and I tried all the tricks to get it to rise - sit up, stand up in a hard gear, etc. I'm going to try again after work. Sometimes my HR is low in the morning, but not this low. Maybe I'm dehydrated? Don't know.

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