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 2015-03-17 7:23 PM in reply to: 0 |
Master 10208   Northern IL |  Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?)Originally posted by Jet Black Originally posted by mcmanusclan5 TLDR version: What worked for me my first (and so far only) two HIM's: Don't put yourself in a hole on the swim, OR the bike. Power as a max effort/spike in effort limiter with HR as the general throttle worked for me on the bike. Paced the bike a hair slower than I thought I could handle (especially on my first HIM) and could empty the tank on the run if I undershot the biking effort level (I did not, as it happens!), as the converse is painful. AND HAVE FUN! It's extremely helpful! Thanks! Yeah, it's a tricky thing to figure out if you don't have any recent experience to reference. The reality is I'm not going to know if a specific pace on any of it is conservative or aggressive until after the fact. Except the swim, I've got a pretty good feel for that and this distance is short enough that I have plenty of experience to reference. You and Steve both touched on it, and I think the most important thing is going to be listening to my body and paying attention to my heart rate. I did just get that powertap, hopefully I can use it enough before the race to figure out it can help me in the race. Thanks again guys! Long form response: Definitely lots of ways to skin the cat. Lots of pithy expressions about pacing, too. "You can't win it on the swim, but you can lose it." "Bike for show, run for dough." "It's all about the run." "Float, hammer, jog." "Float, coast, hammer." and so on... Perhaps my favorite, though, is, "It's all about the bike... because it's all about the run." For many, getting through the swim as fast as you can without blowing up (so, not losing it but not HAMMERING) is the first step. Then it's bike as consistently hard as you can while saving enough to run as optimally as you can. THAT is hard to figure out, IMO! In the couple HIM's I've done (so, not a ton of experience here), I used power to prevent spikes in effort (maximum limiter) and HR to set my general effort level. I picked both the power and HR numbers based on test rides in training and how I felt in runs off the bike (and then set them even a little lower - by a few bpm - than that, as I figured anything left in the tank at the end of the run I could empty out). Turned out that being that little bit conservative on the bike kept me from blowing up on the run. I had NOTHING left in the tank for any kick at the end, but my pace only slowed a little the last couple miles. I think that had I gone any faster/harder on the bike I would have imploded on the last 5k. It was pretty painful anyway, those last few miles, and I could not have gone a lot further... Wow - not sure any of that is helpful, but as I have my first HIM in almost a year in a month or so, this has been on my mind. Helps me to think through my approach, as I'm rusty and not sure WHAT kind of time I will shoot for... This next go 'round, I should have been spending more time on the bike, as I think that effort would pay off **for me** and **at this point in my tri-evolution** with the biggest time savings. Aw, heck, though - who really knows? Right now I'm just happy to be back consistently training after a long time not being able to balance that with the move and new job and not letting my family commitments slip (priorities are such for me - tri is great, but it slips to just "fitness" from "competitive" when family or work demand it at this point in my life). Most important thing is to have fun, and this kind of thinking is fun for me! Matt Sean, just to add a little and (hopefully) not complicate things, especially watch the effort at the beginning of each leg. In addition to pacing too fast in general, people will bolt out from the start and out of transition much too fast and put themselves in a little hole. You'll have a lot of energy from the taper and race day excitement, so keep calm and just do your thing. People go crazy and sprint the swim start. People get excited on the bike and try to get ahead of the crowd or use energy when they have it at the bike start or other such nonsense. There are like 2,000 people on the course. You're not clearing the crowd. On the swim, you are fast enough that other people around will know what they're doing well enough to draft off of. I've been around 30 min shape before too, but didn't end up finding anyone so did my own thing. Kept it simple. I also don't know how change of pace might affect you to really recommend pushing for some feet to follow. Power can be a big help. Do you have a strategy for learning about it now? Do you pick up various methodologies well? Edited by brigby1 2015-03-17 7:24 PM |
People will bolt right on out. Just let them go. Some might be that fast. Most won't and you'll see them again. Running tends to be more just getting used to the sensation of running again. It always feels really slow coming off the bike.| 2015-03-17 8:36 PM in reply to: Jet Black |
Veteran 1100 Dayton | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) Originally posted by Jet Black Originally posted by popsracer It's a down-current swim (median time less than an hr!) over world class reefs! Originally posted by Jet Black Originally posted by popsracer I think I'm going to do Cozumel. You in?Originally posted by Jet Black A little googling came up with the winners. No luck for me. http://www.ironman.com/en/triathlon/news/articles/2015/03/2015-lott... Looks like we are just going to have to qualify I haven't thought much beyond Boise. I'd sure like to do something epic later in the season. Hmmm.. I'll have to talk to the boss about his one. That sounds amazing! I'd love a swim like that. One of the reasons I don't like OWS is not being able to see down. #claustrophobic? |
Maybe next year.| 2015-03-17 8:37 PM in reply to: Jet Black |
Veteran 1100 Dayton | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) Originally posted by Jet Black Originally posted by mcmanusclan5 I'm going to have to find a way to break 10 hrs! More like 9:45 at Cozumel with the quick swim! Originally posted by popsracer Originally posted by Jet Black A little googling came up with the winners. No luck for me. http://www.ironman.com/en/triathlon/news/articles/2015/03/2015-lott... Looks like we are just going to have to qualify FTW!  GIF FTW. |
| 2015-03-17 8:58 PM in reply to: ponderingfox |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) Originally posted by ponderingfox Originally posted by Jet Black Originally posted by popsracer It's a down-current swim (median time less than an hr!) over world class reefs! Originally posted by Jet Black Originally posted by popsracer I think I'm going to do Cozumel. You in?Originally posted by Jet Black A little googling came up with the winners. No luck for me. http://www.ironman.com/en/triathlon/news/articles/2015/03/2015-lott... Looks like we are just going to have to qualify I haven't thought much beyond Boise. I'd sure like to do something epic later in the season. Hmmm.. I'll have to talk to the boss about his one. That sounds amazing! I'd love a swim like that. One of the reasons I don't like OWS is not being able to see down. #claustrophobic? Think this is the most highly rated swim in the IM circuit. |
| 2015-03-18 6:58 AM in reply to: brigby1 |
812 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by Jet Black Originally posted by mcmanusclan5 TLDR version: What worked for me my first (and so far only) two HIM's: Don't put yourself in a hole on the swim, OR the bike. Power as a max effort/spike in effort limiter with HR as the general throttle worked for me on the bike. Paced the bike a hair slower than I thought I could handle (especially on my first HIM) and could empty the tank on the run if I undershot the biking effort level (I did not, as it happens!), as the converse is painful. AND HAVE FUN! It's extremely helpful! Thanks! Yeah, it's a tricky thing to figure out if you don't have any recent experience to reference. The reality is I'm not going to know if a specific pace on any of it is conservative or aggressive until after the fact. Except the swim, I've got a pretty good feel for that and this distance is short enough that I have plenty of experience to reference. You and Steve both touched on it, and I think the most important thing is going to be listening to my body and paying attention to my heart rate. I did just get that powertap, hopefully I can use it enough before the race to figure out it can help me in the race. Thanks again guys! Long form response: Definitely lots of ways to skin the cat. Lots of pithy expressions about pacing, too. "You can't win it on the swim, but you can lose it." "Bike for show, run for dough." "It's all about the run." "Float, hammer, jog." "Float, coast, hammer." and so on... Perhaps my favorite, though, is, "It's all about the bike... because it's all about the run." For many, getting through the swim as fast as you can without blowing up (so, not losing it but not HAMMERING) is the first step. Then it's bike as consistently hard as you can while saving enough to run as optimally as you can. THAT is hard to figure out, IMO! In the couple HIM's I've done (so, not a ton of experience here), I used power to prevent spikes in effort (maximum limiter) and HR to set my general effort level. I picked both the power and HR numbers based on test rides in training and how I felt in runs off the bike (and then set them even a little lower - by a few bpm - than that, as I figured anything left in the tank at the end of the run I could empty out). Turned out that being that little bit conservative on the bike kept me from blowing up on the run. I had NOTHING left in the tank for any kick at the end, but my pace only slowed a little the last couple miles. I think that had I gone any faster/harder on the bike I would have imploded on the last 5k. It was pretty painful anyway, those last few miles, and I could not have gone a lot further... Wow - not sure any of that is helpful, but as I have my first HIM in almost a year in a month or so, this has been on my mind. Helps me to think through my approach, as I'm rusty and not sure WHAT kind of time I will shoot for... This next go 'round, I should have been spending more time on the bike, as I think that effort would pay off **for me** and **at this point in my tri-evolution** with the biggest time savings. Aw, heck, though - who really knows? Right now I'm just happy to be back consistently training after a long time not being able to balance that with the move and new job and not letting my family commitments slip (priorities are such for me - tri is great, but it slips to just "fitness" from "competitive" when family or work demand it at this point in my life). Most important thing is to have fun, and this kind of thinking is fun for me! Matt Sean, just to add a little and (hopefully) not complicate things, especially watch the effort at the beginning of each leg. In addition to pacing too fast in general, people will bolt out from the start and out of transition much too fast and put themselves in a little hole. You'll have a lot of energy from the taper and race day excitement, so keep calm and just do your thing. People go crazy and sprint the swim start. People get excited on the bike and try to get ahead of the crowd or use energy when they have it at the bike start or other such nonsense. There are like 2,000 people on the course. You're not clearing the crowd. On the swim, you are fast enough that other people around will know what they're doing well enough to draft off of. I've been around 30 min shape before too, but didn't end up finding anyone so did my own thing. Kept it simple. I also don't know how change of pace might affect you to really recommend pushing for some feet to follow. Power can be a big help. Do you have a strategy for learning about it now? Do you pick up various methodologies well? Thanks Ben, that's good context. I just had a look at last years results, and it looks like I'm going to have to just settle in while I get passed by hundreds of folks on the bike and the run. I think I'll be out of the water toward the front of my AG without trying too hard, but man I am so much slower on the bike and the run than the competition! On power, I wasn't really planning on getting a meter so I've not read up on it yet. I understand that similar to your threshold and max HR, you have those for power as well, but I've got some reading to do. I have a sprint Tri next weekend where I should be able to get some good data on what my max ~35-40 minute power is which hopefully I can use to set training and HIM power off of. But first I've got to get tires and a cassette (should be delivered today) on the wheels and use them prior to the race to make sure everything works. |
| 2015-03-18 10:48 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 2263  Ridgeland, Mississippi | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) It ended up being way wordier than I thought it would be, but my race report is now posted: Edited by msteiner 2015-03-18 10:48 AM |
| 2015-03-18 11:10 AM in reply to: msteiner |
Member 2689 Denver, CO | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) Random cute border collie puppy overload. Enjoy! |
| 2015-03-18 1:02 PM in reply to: Asalzwed |
Veteran 2842 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by mcmanusclan5 Salty - so sorry for your cousin. We're a big family with lots of cousins and all pretty tight. I can only imagine the shock and pain that caused you - even more for being tragic and sudden. To switch gears on you (which feel weird), sounds like your own weekend was awesome. Not sure I'd enjoy the dunking enough to laugh that much whilst wet! Too funny. Pops - glad to hear the foot is behind you. Looking forward to hearing how that key workout works for you going forward. My last serious go-round with structured HIM training had a similar one (long ride with 2-3 miles right off the bike on Sunday, with Saturday being a 30' warmup on the trainer and the week's long run). I found it a great strength builder... MattMS - looking forward to the RR, but that sounds like a heck of a race! Decent weekend of training here, but more importantly was at SxSW with the family. What a blast!!! This is going to be a tough week to hang with my training volume! Matt OMG was going to ask if you guys were going to do some SXSW! Again, I am sad to miss it this year. It has a very special place in my heart. I generally discover ALL of my music for the whole year there. You could be waiting in line at one of the big, more corporate venues when some random singer/songwriter serenades you who then goes on to become one of the best new artists of the year. Then you get inside the venue to find a full band set up in the restroom, jamming. It's such an awesome experience. I've not been to the interactive or film part, which I would also like to go to. Yeah, and we have a bunch of stuff planned for this weekend (taking tomorrow off and gave the company Friday off as our "Spring Holiday" in place of a couple others, as it's also local schools' spring break this week). Can't wait, as there are some great bands playing free gigs! We were just talking about the film portion and decided that next year we're going to makes plans for that, as well. Even if we have to pay. Might be great timing for a manatee meet up! Matt |
| 2015-03-18 1:14 PM in reply to: IndoIronYanti |
Master 6595 Rio Rancho, NM | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) |
| 2015-03-18 1:31 PM in reply to: rrrunner |
Master 3870 | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) Originally posted by rrrunner I got a whole lotta training to do. In for the full!!! :DErin did you and/or J get in??????
|
| 2015-03-18 1:38 PM in reply to: 4agoodlife |
Pro 6520 Bellingham, WA | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by rrrunner I got a whole lotta training to do. In for the full!!! :D Erin did you and/or J get in??????
Which race was this? |
| 2015-03-18 1:40 PM in reply to: rrrunner |
Master 3870 | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) Originally posted by rrrunner Make it??? Erin did you and/or J get in??????
|
| 2015-03-18 1:42 PM in reply to: popsracer |
Master 3870 | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) Originally posted by popsracer Pikes Peak. I'm bringing in 40 with a bang...or a crash Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by rrrunner I got a whole lotta training to do. In for the full!!! :D Erin did you and/or J get in??????
Which race was this?  |
| 2015-03-18 1:44 PM in reply to: 4agoodlife |
Master 6595 Rio Rancho, NM | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by popsracer Pikes Peak. I'm bringing in 40 with a bang...or a crash Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by rrrunner I got a whole lotta training to do. In for the full!!! :D Erin did you and/or J get in??????
Which race was this? I'm in for the Ascent... oh chit... |
| 2015-03-18 1:49 PM in reply to: rrrunner |
Master 3870 | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) Originally posted by rrrunner Yay! Told J I'm excitedly petrified. That's good, right? LolOriginally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by popsracer Pikes Peak. I'm bringing in 40 with a bang...or a crash Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by rrrunner I got a whole lotta training to do. In for the full!!! :D Erin did you and/or J get in??????
Which race was this? I'm in for the Ascent... oh chit... |
| 2015-03-18 1:50 PM in reply to: popsracer |
Pro 6520 Bellingham, WA | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) On riding with power, I'm still waiting for a cheaper pedal based system. I am getting a little impatient but it sounds like some new things are just around the corner. I have several wheels that I use so don't want to commit to a hub based system. On another note, I think it is riding not running that was contributing to my recent foot pain. Seems really odd but it is when I get off my trainer that I feel those little twinges of PF type pain. When I stepped on a root several weeks ago that just inflamed what was becoming tender. I've been riding with Feetures PF sock for added support which seems to help but I am still getting a hot spot on my foot. Am puzzled?? My road bike shoe with a narrower toe box was much worse than my wider tri bike shoe. Do you think more padding would help like a gel insert? |
| 2015-03-18 1:56 PM in reply to: 4agoodlife |
Pro 6520 Bellingham, WA | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by popsracer Pikes Peak. I'm bringing in 40 with a bang...or a crash Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by rrrunner I got a whole lotta training to do. In for the full!!! :D Erin did you and/or J get in??????
Which race was this? Got it. I didn't realize there was a full option. Yikes, I think going back down would be as painful or more so than going up and more dangerous. |
| 2015-03-18 2:02 PM in reply to: popsracer |
Extreme Veteran 2263 Ridgeland, Mississippi | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) Originally posted by popsracer On riding with power, I'm still waiting for a cheaper pedal based system. I am getting a little impatient but it sounds like some new things are just around the corner. I have several wheels that I use so don't want to commit to a hub based system. I like my PT, but if the 4iiii was out and proved to be accurate I probably would have gone with it. |
| 2015-03-18 2:06 PM in reply to: 4agoodlife |
Master 7712 Orlando | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by rrrunner Yay! Told J I'm excitedly petrified. That's good, right? Lol Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by popsracer Pikes Peak. I'm bringing in 40 with a bang...or a crash Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by rrrunner I got a whole lotta training to do. In for the full!!! :D Erin did you and/or J get in??????
Which race was this? I'm in for the Ascent... oh chit...
Woo Hoo to both of you (Erin and TJ)!! Excitedly petrified sounds about right!! |
| 2015-03-18 2:12 PM in reply to: amd723 |
| 812 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) Originally posted by amd723 Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by rrrunner Yay! Told J I'm excitedly petrified. That's good, right? Lol Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by popsracer Pikes Peak. I'm bringing in 40 with a bang...or a crash Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by rrrunner I got a whole lotta training to do. In for the full!!! :D Erin did you and/or J get in??????
Which race was this? I'm in for the Ascent... oh chit...
Woo Hoo to both of you (Erin and TJ)!! Excitedly petrified sounds about right!! This is definitely the most insane group of folks I've ever been associated with. And it's awesome. Very exciting y'all! When's the race? |
| 2015-03-18 2:14 PM in reply to: popsracer |
| 812 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) Originally posted by popsracer On riding with power, I'm still waiting for a cheaper pedal based system. I am getting a little impatient but it sounds like some new things are just around the corner. I have several wheels that I use so don't want to commit to a hub based system. On another note, I think it is riding not running that was contributing to my recent foot pain. Seems really odd but it is when I get off my trainer that I feel those little twinges of PF type pain. When I stepped on a root several weeks ago that just inflamed what was becoming tender. I've been riding with Feetures PF sock for added support which seems to help but I am still getting a hot spot on my foot. Am puzzled?? My road bike shoe with a narrower toe box was much worse than my wider tri bike shoe. Do you think more padding would help like a gel insert? That's interesting on your foot. Have you done a bike fit? Did they mess with the cleats w/spacers to get your feet and legs set up right on the pedals? Might be worth checking that. |
| 2015-03-18 2:15 PM in reply to: amd723 |
Member 2689 Denver, CO | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) Originally posted by amd723 Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by rrrunner Yay! Told J I'm excitedly petrified. That's good, right? Lol Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by popsracer Pikes Peak. I'm bringing in 40 with a bang...or a crash Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by rrrunner I got a whole lotta training to do. In for the full!!! :D Erin did you and/or J get in??????
Which race was this? I'm in for the Ascent... oh chit...
Woo Hoo to both of you (Erin and TJ)!! Excitedly petrified sounds about right!! Guess I'd better make plans for where to be to help you most. Maybe around mile 5? Salty, did you get in? Erin, is J racing it too (either the half or full)? |
| 2015-03-18 2:18 PM in reply to: Jet Black |
Master 6595 Rio Rancho, NM | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) Originally posted by Jet Black Originally posted by amd723 This is definitely the most insane group of folks I've ever been associated with. And it's awesome. Very exciting y'all! When's the race? Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by rrrunner Yay! Told J I'm excitedly petrified. That's good, right? Lol Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by popsracer Pikes Peak. I'm bringing in 40 with a bang...or a crash Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by rrrunner I got a whole lotta training to do. In for the full!!! :D Erin did you and/or J get in??????
Which race was this? I'm in for the Ascent... oh chit...
Woo Hoo to both of you (Erin and TJ)!! Excitedly petrified sounds about right!! 150 days... but who's counting (august 15&16) |
| 2015-03-18 2:18 PM in reply to: laffinrock |
Master 6595 Rio Rancho, NM | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) Originally posted by laffinrock Originally posted by amd723 Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by rrrunner Yay! Told J I'm excitedly petrified. That's good, right? Lol Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by popsracer Pikes Peak. I'm bringing in 40 with a bang...or a crash Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by rrrunner I got a whole lotta training to do. In for the full!!! :D Erin did you and/or J get in??????
Which race was this? I'm in for the Ascent... oh chit...
Woo Hoo to both of you (Erin and TJ)!! Excitedly petrified sounds about right!! Guess I'd better make plans for where to be to help you most. Maybe around mile 5? Salty, did you get in? Erin, is J racing it too (either the half or full)? Are you jumpin in as a pacer? |
| 2015-03-18 2:23 PM in reply to: rrrunner |
Member 2689 Denver, CO | Subject: RE: Manatee Mentors 2015.2 CLOSED (Poptarts? Pet pics?) Originally posted by rrrunner Originally posted by laffinrock Originally posted by amd723 Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by rrrunner Yay! Told J I'm excitedly petrified. That's good, right? Lol Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by popsracer Pikes Peak. I'm bringing in 40 with a bang...or a crash Originally posted by 4agoodlife Originally posted by rrrunner I got a whole lotta training to do. In for the full!!! :D Erin did you and/or J get in??????
Which race was this? I'm in for the Ascent... oh chit...
Woo Hoo to both of you (Erin and TJ)!! Excitedly petrified sounds about right!! Guess I'd better make plans for where to be to help you most. Maybe around mile 5? Salty, did you get in? Erin, is J racing it too (either the half or full)? Are you jumpin in as a pacer? Matching the kits might be a bit tricky unless you all wear the same thing. I'm definitely not doing roadside costume changes. |
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