SBR Utopia - OPEN (Page 38)

I'm the same way.  I generally need 20 or so minutes, sometimes a little longer, but my interval sessions are shorter then my warmup/cooldown

Not really.  When I add on time to my rides I usually target 80-85%FTP...still quality work with little recovery cost.

~83-85% is where many consider the lower end of sweet spot to be. It'll overlap with threshold level work at the higher end. You should be ok so long as you can continue to hit the more intense parts of that workout and in following workouts over the next few days. Wouldn't expect those to be much more difficult (if any) with 15 minutes of this.

Hey Tri-Peeps,

Kimberly asked me a good question, was I thinking of Aqua-jogging given my PF challenges.  I'm not a fan of Aqua-Jogging and much rather like to SWIM in a pool.  When I run, short runs are 7:30 - 8:00 pace, longer runs are 8:00 to 9:00 pace so am I really getting much out of Aqua-Jogging?  What if I just swim or ride instead.  I will still run every week, but only as much as I can handle with the pain etc.  Is is about using muscles associated with running so that upright position has something to do with it?

How about Elyptical vs. Aqua Jogging?

Anyhow your thoughts appreciated!

Oh and THANK YOU VERY MUCH for your input on my PF issues, very good tips and I do have the foot thing for sleeping at night.  I threw a water bottle in the freezer last night to be used tonight.

Anyone racing this weekend?

x2. I look at sweet spot as more towards 88-93%. Again...just make sure you can complete the rest of the workout and future workouts.  5x1' @ 120% shouldn't be that killer unless they're done on rest intervals less than 15 seconds.  I'd guess that I would be somewhat gassed after the last interval, but after 2-3 minutes of recovery, I would be able to reapply the power in the 85-90% range for the remaining 12-13 minutes.

Well, honestly it is only about 30-35 minutes total anyway. The purpose is multifaceted. Part of it is just simply scheduling and time management. I get out of work and get to the track and I have x minutes. The other part is getting miles in where I can. It definitely has nothing to do with training in a more "fatigued" state. 

I may just be adapting to the higher intensity too. I have been doing speed-work for a few months now. Maybe it's just time to move up to a faster group.

Ah, I think I got it. Well, if I was just trying to get some extra time on my feet I personally would do it after the speed work so as not to sacrifice the focus of the speed work. On the other hand if I were going to try and jump on some faster shoulders I would definitely spend the extra time doing a legit warmup. Of course the time could be well spent on the back end doing a legit warm down as well, especially if you were pushed a little harder by a faster group. Hmmmmmmm....

Have you found anything on why there's a difference with the low end? The 88% is from Training & Racing w/a Powermeter, and the 83-85% is from other sources & rather knowledgeable forum users (here & ST). I haven't found anything on it yet, even though Coggan is involved with everything. Don't think it's that big of a deal, but hate to leave some things hanging.

Methinks this is it and sometimes, simplicity is best.  However, for many folks, "hard" needs to be defined in an understandable - and manageable - way.

- Brian

IMO, it's because the plan is designed to help the most people possible - and many of them will experience gains and improvements, even when pushing the lower end of the intensity scale.  I know I did.  I just think that as you get further along, you need to push harder (for cycling) to continue seeing improvements. 

And if you look back at the old threads on Jorge's program there is a common theme about how tough it was (mostly the shorter intervals), so I think too many people would be scared off if you bump the intensity of the "easier" part fot he workouts by another 10 points.

Hmmm...I don't know.  I just remember 88-93 (actually 94% since I have his book on my desk) from the book.

My personal belief in sweet spot is that it's a great substitute for threshold riding when you aren't super fresh (from overall training fatigue) and you don't want recovery cost to be too high so you can still get in good workouts the next day.  So 88-94% would fit that bill if you're going to do something like 4x10's, 3x15's or 2x20's.

For 83-85%, that's like upper HIM effort, and 3x15's or 2x20's at that effort wouldn't do me much good.  Maybe if I was doing 3x30's as part of a long ride, but I always though that sweet spot was more of a zone that you'll target in a 60-90' workout...thus higher intensity.

Just looking at a sample workout from the book, Coggan suggests...

2-2.5 hours
15' WU
2x20' at 88-94% with 15' recovery
8-10x1' with 2' recovery
15' CD

I don't know anyone on ST that would suggest a workout like this where the 2x20's are done at 83-85%.  So maybe their definition of sweet spot is different.

I have officially fallen way behind with a severe cold that I cannot seem to shake, even after following Rusty's advice to take it very easy.  So, after taking it easy didn't work, I have done zero training in the last 4 days, and only 30 minutes of running over the last 7 days. Unfortunately, I am not feeling rested during this forced downtime. Good times.

So, once healed, will I be smart enough to resist the urge to play "catch-up" and avoid injury...

- Brian

Agree with all that.  I would consider that Main Set material. 

Just to clarify, I ride at 80-85% after the MS (i.e. Work) is complete and I am looking to ride a bit longer.  89-94% would drill me at that point.

In the context of the MS (5x1') that Neil outlined for his workout I think riding at 89-94% would be a good thing to add.

Yeah I had a 7-day head cold 1.5 weeks ago and seem to be starting it again.  Maybe it's because I did not listen to Rusty's advice haha.

Yeah, definitely do as I say, not as I do. I am a pro at turning that sh*t into Bronchitis, Pneumonia, etc.

Yeah, the 83% sounds like it might be stretching some to me as well, but that's what was reported. Usually I had seen 85% more often, so closer to 88. I've looked at sweet spot more as a way to get more riding time near enough to threshold to work it. So when working in the high 80's, I'll do more than just 2 x 20' (and one has to do more since the effort is lower). But then one can also do enough more that it's possible to get more benefit from riding at this level as opposed to closer to threshold, so the idea goes. It depends on how much time you have and how you want to use it.

Something like last Saturday for me would be like this, and would also be more of what ST might do. The main blocks were 3 x 20' & 1 x 35' for 1:35 at ~86-88% (plus some other shorter things since I was following the vids for 1:45-1:50).

So my question is still with the difference in the lower end even though Coggan seems to be the root for everyone with this concept. It's not so much as to the concept of sweet spot, but in defining it. 5% (or more) is starting to become a noticeable difference in power.

I'd definately say that 85% (as per the workout you mentioned) would be a more appropriate lower end...especially since your workout was so long.  If you only got 60-90 minutes, you're probably going to want to be at 90% or higher for the intervals.  If I'm doing 2x20' or 3x15', I'll probably be closer to the 91-94% range.

Considering how long people should be able to hold 83% (such as in a HIM), I would consider that more of an endurance workout.  It's really interesting how the difference between 83% and 88% may be small...but the amount of time you can spend there is HUGE.

x2 what tri808 says.

But back to Rusty's question - I believe that most plans are written with "the masses" in mind. As a true beginner (first couple of seasons), I implicitly trusted the plan. Once I got a little bit of knowledge (which can be a dangerous thing), I started to tweak the plans a bit to better fit my personal circumstances (work/family/etc). I actually see the progression being - plan, self coached (cobbled together plan), coached (once you realize that the gains you can make being self coached may be limiting).

Got a 90' grind on the bike followed by a quick 30' run while the kids are ski racing. I love Friday nights in January. This weekend looks a little dicey weather-wise (freezing rain predicted for tonight and tomorrow morning - which means the roads will be TERRIBLE), so a long bike on the trainer on tap for Saturday. I may actually hit every single workout scheduled for this week for the first time this year ;-)

Have a great weekend all!

I probably just need to remember the second paragraph. It's not really to target anything specific like Threshold or VO2, but is more of a concept in working in a range that will help to maximize the training load (TSS) for the time riding.

So suggestions for the following main sets?  What power zones would you use (I've included the plan defaults)?

45min - 5' intervals, rotating between 75,80,85%
3x8min - 85-90%
40min - increase every 5min from 70%-95%, then back down again and start over.
20min - 2' @ 20MP, 2' @ 70%

I don't have any person experience but I have heard it recommended over and over again. 

Here is some information on it: http://www.pfitzinger.com/labreports/water.shtml

Is that 1 workout or main sets of 4 different workouts ?