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2009-08-24 2:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner
. What I don't want to do - and I suspect many do exactly this - is to sign up for a full IM race then only put in a half effort on the training, and end up bonking and/or walking the entire marathon. .


Boy, this is an entirely different thread, but there is a complete disconnect between these two ideas (quality of training vs. bonking/walking the IM mary).   Rick might have a thought on this,,,,,,,


2009-08-24 3:05 PM
in reply to: #2365928

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Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner
JF Said: "I don’t think it’s good for the future of any endurance sport when going slowly for a long time just so one can cross the finish line is held in higher regard than going very fast for a short distance"

I think what Friel may be saying is that as I said earlier, "just finishing" an Ironman holds a lot more of a "wow" factor than say winning your age-group in a Olympic or a Sprint.

It seems many individuals just want to run a marathon or complete an Ironman just to say they did it. When that same individual - with a limited amount of time to train - could be competitive enough to win their age-group in a Olympic or Sprint if they didn't jump to the longer distances undertrained.

But it seems a lot of first timers believe once they compete in their first sprint, even if they finish BOP, they now need to move on to "bigger and better" things like a HIM or Ironman.

People see me running, biking, etc. all the time and ask me why. When I tell them that I compete in triathlons, immediately they think of the images of people crawling across the finish line in Kona. When I tell them I won my age group with a time just over an hour ... I get that "big deal" look and that's the end of the conversation.

It probably has a lot to do with how Ironman events are covered on TV. It always kind of irritates me that they spend 90% of the coverage talking about the competitors that are not in contention to win, but have interesting personal stories and will struggle across the finish line in 16 hours. But only a little time is given to the actual winners. Thus they to are promoting the "everyone's a winner" philosophy.
2009-08-24 3:08 PM
in reply to: #2367324

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Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner

moondawg14 - 2009-08-24 3:44 PM
roch1009 - 2009-08-23 3:05 PM]

Agreed.  A lot of people will equate doing an IM or Marathon to climbing a mountain.  How do you know when you've succeeded in climbing the mountain? 

When you get to the top.  No consideration of time or pace.  And I think that's perfectly acceptable.



Technically, getting to the *bottom* of the mountain, AFTER reaching the top, is considered success.

But I digress.  

Unless you have a helicopter waiting for you, like I always do.

But I digress.

2009-08-24 3:21 PM
in reply to: #2367379

Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner

rventuri - 2009-08-24 4:05 PM  People see me running, biking, etc. all the time and ask me why. When I tell them that I compete in triathlons, immediately they think of the images of people crawling across the finish line in Kona. When I tell them I won my age group with a time just over an hour ... I get that "big deal" look and that's the end of the conversation. It probably has a lot to do with how Ironman events are covered on TV. It always kind of irritates me that they spend 90% of the coverage talking about the competitors that are not in contention to win, but have interesting personal stories and will struggle across the finish line in 16 hours. But only a little time is given to the actual winners. Thus they to are promoting the "everyone's a winner" philosophy.

I'd disagree. The people who give you the "whatever" looks probably just don't care about the sport. Believe it or not, there ARE people in America who don't care about triathlon! I'm not saying that to offend you, but it's the truth. A lot of people know very little about it and frankly, don't care. I don't care about golf or professional basketball. No different, really. But aside from that, I don't think that the Ironman coverage is marketing "everyone is a winner", but that it takes a lot of effort, will power and determination to conquer a goal like that. I think it's very obvious how hard an Ironman is - they are always showing video footage of people staggering, walking with their broken bikes, etc. And maybe it'll get someone off the couch and decide they want to participate in the sport - I don't think that is a bad thing at all. Then maybe less people will give you weird looks. I know there are people on here who saw Ironman footage on TV and that was what prompted them into the sport. We know that people have been drawn into the sport by seeing people like John Blais or other physically challenged athletes participate. Not bad publicity for the sport, I don't think.

As I said before, and as others said before as well, there's a difference between promoting "everyone is a winner" in kids so that they grow up thinking everything will be handed to them, and simply going out and achieving goals you set for yourself, whatever that is.

2009-08-24 3:36 PM
in reply to: #2367447

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Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner
wurkit_gurl - 2009-08-24 3:21 PM

I'd disagree. The people who give you the "whatever" looks probably just don't care about the sport. Believe it or not, there ARE people in America who don't care about triathlon! I'm not saying that to offend you, but it's the truth.



No offense taken ... and I absolutely agree. That's why I tend to only talk about it when someone asks me about it. For instance, most of the people I work with could care less, and so I don't bring it up.

But I still see Triathlon as athletic endeavour, and I think that is how it should be covered on the rare occasions it is actually on TV. Not saying it is right or wrong ... just an opinion.

2009-08-24 3:36 PM
in reply to: #2365928

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Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner
Um k so you can complete an ironman and not be considered a winner?  Well darn! If I had known that I had to actually win the ironman to have completed something hard and worthwhile well shucks, I guess I should go back to drinking beer and watching the TV all day. 

Seriously if you go the distance and complete it, you have won quite a bit.  Do you have to podium to win? Or is a podium finish not really good enough unless you also qualify for Kona?  Well what if you are at Kona and you finish 2nd in your age group, does that mean that you suck to only be 2nd in the world at something in your age group? 

Ya I get the elete versus mortal distinction, I am in the second group.  My 12 hour IM does not hurt the 9 hour guy's IM at all, nor does his 9 hour finish in any way deminish my sense of accomplishment.  In fact, I paid for some of his prize money.  He was fast, I admire him, I may some day be that fast, probably not.  If everyone I knew competed in triathlons the world would be a better place, they would be more fit, and less likely to have as many medical costs, thus lowering healthcare costs.  More people competing = more events = more options for which competitions to do.  Um where is the down side?       

However, I do see the purposefully don't train, purposefully do not perform at the highest level they are able to during the race as a different issue. 

So, if I put in the recommended mileage at the appropriate intensity for the plan I am following, taper and swim, bike and run the fastest my genetics and training (this year) allow me to then I am "racing" per this thread.  If I blow off training, just assume I can finish the event by taking a 10 minute break every 15 miles  on the bike and plan to walk the entire marathon eating everything I can because it is actually tastey... well then that is a different event.  So there is racing because you might win, there is racing against yourself, there is training and then finishing and then there is not training much and then still not trying to go very fast once you are there.  The last category is the one I see people having an issue with.  Like those who walk a marathon in 12 hours.  It is a different race/sport than running it in 4 hours, but it is an accomplishment, just a different one.     

Edited by Baowolf 2009-08-24 3:55 PM


2009-08-24 3:52 PM
in reply to: #2365928

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Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner
Maybe us slow newbs who are diluting the sport should quit wasting our money on the events and just stick to exercising locally.  I'm more about the prize I carry each day anyway (my body) than a ribbon, medal, trophy or Bozo button. Many of you are right that I can do that with or without an actual event. 
2009-08-24 4:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner

I read the entire blog entry. I don't think what Friel wrote was controversial.

I also think the subject of this thread is misleading, with respect to Friel's overall message. For example, he also wrote this: 

One good thing I see about this shift in attitude in sport is that it encourages more people to participate.

It's been many moons since I had to take a reading comprehension test, but if I had to summarize his blog entry I would choose:

Many people are choosing endurance events because the attitude seems to be that going long is more macho (or a more worthy accomplishment) than performing well at a shorter distance. I prefer the days when performance was the measure, rather than simply finishing a long(er) event. But it's good that more people are participating, in general.

 

My 2cents but adjusted for inflation, you owe me a quarter.

2009-08-24 4:14 PM
in reply to: #2365928

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Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner
Somebody call Joe and ask him exactly what he meant. 
2009-08-24 4:19 PM
in reply to: #2365928

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Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner

I do agree with him but he's missing some huge points which are:

- Back then there was only one Ironman, and almost every interview I've listened to of early Ironmen, they just wanted to finish too.  Now there's what, 40? Ironmans and IM 70.3.  

- Races back then were set up to compete, many races today are set up as a fundraiser first, competition second.  Many people are doing it for a cause.  These people who are doing it for a cause lower the average of the competitors.

- America seems to look at endurance sports as a cure to obesity.  Its helped a few but its not a cure.

- The media profiles 'finishers' more than they do winners, giving couch potatoes and incentive that if they compete and finish, they've established just as much respect as if they've won.  I admire the girl who lost 100 lbs and finished a marathon, or the guy who finished on one leg,  but in the end of the day profiling them is an insult to the winners and the rest of the competitors in the race. 

2009-08-24 4:30 PM
in reply to: #2365928

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Subject: Everyone's a Winner. A Rebuttal

Dear people who are looking to do your first 5k, 10k, half marathon, marathon, sprint, Olympic, Half Ironman or Iron Distance triathlon:

Don't listen to anyone who tries to tell you that your slow goal time is somehow bad for the sport.

Even if your goal is to walk a marathon. Is that a huge athletic accomplishment? For most people, no it isn't. But that doesn't mean it isn't worth doing. Nor does it mean that it's anyone else's place to question or criticize why you're doing it.

Pick a distance.

Train for it, smartly and safely.

Set whatever goal for the distance you want: come in first place, come in last place, "just" finish, top 50% of your age group, whatever.

Do your race.

Damn the torpedoes and ignore the naysayers.

Then pick another one and do it all again.

And enjoy that tattoo on your ankle. You earned it.



2009-08-24 4:36 PM
in reply to: #2367624

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Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner. A Rebuttal
Well said.

Considering that Friel is in the coaching business and his business relies on amateurs buying his coaching plans and services, I'm a little shocked that he'd poo-poo the ranks of the mere mortals...
2009-08-24 4:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner. A Rebuttal
marmadaddy - 2009-08-24 4:30 PM


Dear people who are looking to do your first 5k, 10k, half marathon, marathon, sprint, Olympic, Half Ironman or Iron Distance triathlon:

Don't listen to anyone who tries to tell you that your slow goal time is somehow bad for the sport.

Even if your goal is to walk a marathon. Is that a huge athletic accomplishment? For most people, no it isn't. But that doesn't mean it isn't worth doing. Nor does it mean that it's anyone else's place to question or criticize why you're doing it.

Pick a distance.

Train for it, smartly and safely.

Set whatever goal for the distance you want: come in first place, come in last place, "just" finish, top 50% of your age group, whatever.

Do your race.

Damn the torpedoes and ignore the naysayers.

Then pick another one and do it all again.

And enjoy that tattoo on your ankle. You earned it.



THANK YOU!!!!

Exactly!

Plus, who do you think PAYS for all these races? The pros who get invited for free? HUH? Sure, there are sponsors for the race... obviously... but all of us age groupers pay entry fees that goes towards stuff.

2009-08-24 4:38 PM
in reply to: #2367593

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Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner
furiousferret - 2009-08-24 2:19 PM
- The media profiles 'finishers' more than they do winners, giving couch potatoes and incentive that if they compete and finish, they've established just as much respect as if they've won.  I admire the girl who lost 100 lbs and finished a marathon, or the guy who finished on one leg,  but in the end of the day profiling them is an insult to the winners and the rest of the competitors in the race. 


I hardly think that the winner of a race is insulted because the media takes some time to profile a BOP'er finishing on a prosthesis. If you're insulted that they choose to show some of the BOP'ers and people that soldier on despite incredible difficulties/odds, then maybe your own personal priorities need a bit of a shuffling.

The media portrays these people because that is who the majority of their viewers are. They are the MOP/BOP'ers who see the telecast or print story and say "Maybe I CAN do that!" and go out and at least get in somewhat better shape than they were in before.

I like reading about the pros, but I also like reading about people that will probably never come close to winning any kind of hardware, yet still enjoy the sport and encourage people around them to do the same. There are a lot more of them than there are of the pros.

John
2009-08-24 4:38 PM
in reply to: #2367593

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Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner
furiousferret - 2009-08-24 4:19 PM

I admire the girl who lost 100 lbs and finished a marathon, or the guy who finished on one leg,  but in the end of the day profiling them is an insult to the winners and the rest of the competitors in the race. 



This thread makes me sad. I hear people saying: slow people get out of my way, no one deserves a medal except the people that place in the top, people that overcome huge hurdles don't deserve acclaim for their accomplishments if they don't win the race....

Maybe I am misinterpreting some of these posts, but I don't think so.

I feel like a winner every time I choose to go for a run instead of sitting on my arse drinking a beer (which is what  I really want to do). I feel like a winner when I choose to eat oatmeal instead of a bacon, egg, and cheese sandwich. I feel like a winner when I cross that finish line, no matter how long it took me, cause I tried my very best and never gave up and made sacrifices to get there.

I think everyone should just do their own thing.
2009-08-24 4:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner
furiousferret - 2009-08-24 4:19 PM

I do agree with him but he's missing some huge points which are:

- Back then there was only one Ironman, and almost every interview I've listened to of early Ironmen, they just wanted to finish too.  Now there's what, 40? Ironmans and IM 70.3.  

- Races back then were set up to compete, many races today are set up as a fundraiser first, competition second.  Many people are doing it for a cause.  These people who are doing it for a cause lower the average of the competitors.

- America seems to look at endurance sports as a cure to obesity.  Its helped a few but its not a cure.

- The media profiles 'finishers' more than they do winners, giving couch potatoes and incentive that if they compete and finish, they've established just as much respect as if they've won.  I admire the girl who lost 100 lbs and finished a marathon, or the guy who finished on one leg,  but in the end of the day profiling them is an insult to the winners and the rest of the competitors in the race. 



Right... but 95% of people can't relate to the people winning the race. It doesn't MOVE them to get off the sofa. Seeing someone who has overcome adversity make them think twice about sitting on the sofa.

I remember when Sarah said that it ticked her off seeing someone with two good legs be lazy. And she was right.

I know I don't give a rat's @ss about the winners. I never see them a course. I don't know them. They aren't like me. I can't relate to their world. I like reading and hearing about people I can relate to. Thanks.




2009-08-24 4:40 PM
in reply to: #2367624

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Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner. A Rebuttal
marmadaddy - 2009-08-24 2:30 PM
Dear people who are looking to do your first 5k, 10k, half marathon, marathon, sprint, Olympic, Half Ironman or Iron Distance triathlon:

Don't listen to anyone who tries to tell you that your slow goal time is somehow bad for the sport.

Even if your goal is to walk a marathon. Is that a huge athletic accomplishment? For most people, no it isn't. But that doesn't mean it isn't worth doing. Nor does it mean that it's anyone else's place to question or criticize why you're doing it.

Pick a distance.

Train for it, smartly and safely.

Set whatever goal for the distance you want: come in first place, come in last place, "just" finish, top 50% of your age group, whatever.

Do your race.

Damn the torpedoes and ignore the naysayers.

Then pick another one and do it all again.

And enjoy that tattoo on your ankle. You earned it.



And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why he's the (co) boss. 
2009-08-24 4:47 PM
in reply to: #2367593

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Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner

furiousferret - 2009-08-24 5:19 PM

I admire the girl who lost 100 lbs and finished a marathon, or the guy who finished on one leg,  but in the end of the day profiling them is an insult to the winners and the rest of the competitors in the race. 

Ironman (WTC) and others are in the sports/entertainment industry. More participants mean more income. The more they can brand their event as one that anyone can accomplish, the greater the field and the greater their income. It's called marketing.

There's a great trickle down effect to increasing the field of play that benefits all of us. For example, we have so many choices in bicycles because more Average Joe's and Jane's are getting into the sport. More choices and more price points. Shrink the field and you lose choice and price points. 

2009-08-24 4:48 PM
in reply to: #2367649

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Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner. A Rebuttal
ChrisM - 2009-08-24 2:40 PM
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why he's the (co) boss. 


No, that's why we like him. He's only co-boss because he registered the BT name and it was easier to make him a boss than buy it from him. :p

John
2009-08-24 4:49 PM
in reply to: #2367669

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Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner. A Rebuttal
tkd.teacher - 2009-08-24 2:48 PM
ChrisM - 2009-08-24 2:40 PM
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why he's the (co) boss. 


No, that's why we like him. He's only co-boss because he registered the BT name and it was easier to make him a boss than buy it from him. :p

John


I thought he was the boss cuz of the Dilbert Principle?
2009-08-24 4:50 PM
in reply to: #2365928

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Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner
If you are an elite racer and you don't get a podium finish then no, you didn't win.

However, if you are someone who has had previously gotten winded walking to the mailbox and you finish a marathon. Is that a victory.

Or if you are someone that has lost a limb and you finish even a 5K. Was that a victory.

I think so. A victory is what you make it.



2009-08-24 4:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner. A Rebuttal
ChrisM - 2009-08-24 2:49 PM
tkd.teacher - 2009-08-24 2:48 PM
ChrisM - 2009-08-24 2:40 PM
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why he's the (co) boss. 


No, that's why we like him. He's only co-boss because he registered the BT name and it was easier to make him a boss than buy it from him. :p

John


I thought he was the boss cuz of the Dilbert Principle?


Kind of, yeah, but we try not to say it to his face like that.

John
2009-08-24 4:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner
gettingthere - 2009-08-24 4:38 PM
Maybe I am misinterpreting some of these posts, but I don't think so.


No, you are. I've read this thread from start to finish, I have opined in many other similar threads over the years, I know the heart and minds of a lot of those who have posted here regarding this topic and not one of them have said, believe, or implied that.
2009-08-24 4:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner. A Rebuttal
DrPete - 2009-08-24 2:36 PM Well said.

Considering that Friel is in the coaching business and his business relies on amateurs buying his coaching plans and services, I'm a little shocked that he'd poo-poo the ranks of the mere mortals...


This isn't the first time I've read something a little off from him like that. I honestly don't much like his coaching theories, truth be told. I know a lot of people swear by him (literally on the bible, so to speak ), but he's never really clicked with me. Same with Gordo, but that's probably because I don't do anything longer than an Oly. :D

John
2009-08-24 4:55 PM
in reply to: #2367679

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Subject: RE: Everyone's a Winner. A Rebuttal
tkd.teacher - 2009-08-24 2:52 PM
ChrisM - 2009-08-24 2:49 PM
tkd.teacher - 2009-08-24 2:48 PM
ChrisM - 2009-08-24 2:40 PM
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why he's the (co) boss. 


No, that's why we like him. He's only co-boss because he registered the BT name and it was easier to make him a boss than buy it from him. :p

John


I thought he was the boss cuz of the Dilbert Principle?


Kind of, yeah, but we try not to say it to his face like that.

John


Did I type that out loud????
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