Swimming is irrelevant in 70.3 and IM (Page 4)

Yes, I'm sure that 37th place person is saying to himself, "man, if I had only finished the swim 10 seconds faster I would have come in 35th. 

I dunno... for FOP, I could see this.  For 35th through 38th place?  Notsomuch.  And this is coming from someone who is all too familiar with the MOP.
 

I have done 2 tris -one being a standard sprint & the other being a super sprint. The super sprint was my first. I went out WAY too fast on the swim (new swimmer) & was just beat by the time the run rolled around & I struggled a little (& I'm a runner). My sprint I had a very slow swim (paced myself); as a result. I felt fresh & strong on the bike & the run. In fact, I passed 11 people in the run & placed 3rd in my AG. I was at least 2 minutes behind the others in my AG coming out of the water. However, that definitely conserved my energy for me to excel at what I do best (run).

I definitely think you can be a less-than-great swimmer & place, especially if you pace yourself. I'd always heard the race was not won on the swim. I wouldn't say the swim is irrelevant (as we've already established), but for me as long as I did well at the other 2 disciplines, I was able to finish respectably. Will I recant this when I move to longer distances? Possibly! LOL!

I am guessing even the OP doesn't truly believe the swim is "irrelevant"... I do feel, though, maybe it is "less relevant." (?) 

I'm willing to bet that a huge percentage of the pack would cramp up just attempting to put on the wetsuit. 

I say that to myself about the person who finishes in front of me in every race....no matter the position. When there is no one left to say that about, I'll have accomplished my goal.

To me the whole point is to win....if that is not possible (most of the time its not remotely possible), it's to do the best I can. The next race, the goal is to do better than the last. That all starts by beating the person in front of you...whether that be for 500th place or 5th place. The mentality should be the same.

Fair enough... that's one way to look at it.

For me, it was more about how I did vs. what I knew I was capable of on that day.  The race that I had the highest % placement was one of the crappiest races I ever had... I could have performed way better.  It wasn't better than the last race... it was worse.

Edited by tealeaf 2010-06-22 4:04 PM

my daughter (8 yo) did her first tri last year, finished 2/2 in her age group in 50 minutes and got a sencond place trophy.  This year she did the exact same tri, exact same course, and finished 2/6 in her age group in 39 minutes and got another 2nd place trophy.  Still finished second (though she beat the girl that won last year).  It was cool talking with her about it afterwards and sorting out all that winning stuff.  She was really bummed to no have done any better than last year, since she still finished in 2nd place.  Despite completing it more than 10 minutes faster and beating the girl who beat her last year.  So much of accomplishing your goals is just how you define it.  Personally, I wouldn't define it by making it dependent on who else shows up.  If I knock 10 minutes off my time next tri, no matter where I finish, I'll be stoked!

and, btw, it will be MUCH easier for me to knock that 10 minutes off the bike or run than the swim.

Jeez, I knew my initial post would create a bit of a debate, but I didn't expect as many posts as that! It's good to see all the different points of view.

I have to say that ultimately my reasons for wanting a longer swim are entirely selfish, as I'm a very strong swimmer and pretty poor at the other two.

One other point I would like to make is that I think it would be easier mentally to be a strong runner. In every race I do I am FOP after the swim and then get passed by people continually until the end of the race. I find it so frustrating that all these people can run faster than me and it demotivates me. If I were constantly passing people on the run, I think it would motivate me to run even faster. It does motivate me to train more, as I dream of one day being as fast as those that pass me. I don't enjoy it during the race though

Yep.

The analogy I like is that at the beginning of the race you have 100 coins that you've bought through training. Those coins buy you pace. If you want a 20 minute Oly swim, it'll cost you 20 coins. If you had spent more time in training on the swim, that 20 min swim might only cost you 16 coins. Same time + Less Effort = More to spend on bike/run.

People keep harping on the swim being irrelevant because they see triathlon as three separate events mushed together and/or they don't want to put the effort into improving in the swim. It's not. It's one event. Even a mediocre swim will cost someone not only in time but effort.

John

I don't think anyone is "harping" on the swim being irrelevent. Also, this is mostly about people who like the swim and wish it were longer relative to the bike and run - not that we don't want to put in effort to swim better.

This user's post has been ignored.

A triathlon (whether it's a sprint, oly, HIM, IM, ITU, or something in between) does not favor the best swimmer, nor does it favor the best cyclist, nor does it favor the best runner. 

IT FAVORS THE BEST TRIATHLETE!!!

Last I checked, your finishing time is all that matters in the offical standings.  Your individual splits for s/b/r and transitions are just FYI and mean nothing as far as where you place overall or in your AG. 


ETA: I'm just repeating the above...LOL

Edited by tri808 2010-06-22 6:52 PM

I hear you say that, and believe you and everyone saying it, but how does that get put into real life?  I mean, literally speaking it IS three sports.  They are trained seperately, right?  I keep reading, train the bike like a biker, train the run like a runner and train the swim like a swimmer.  How does one train like a triathlete?  Serious question, btw. 

There is also a saying "train your weakness", and a more mainstream saying "you are only as strong as your weakest link"



Edited by tri808 2010-06-22 7:19 PM

By setting up a schedule that allows you as much time as possible in each of the three different disciplines, and an honest periodic assessment of your weaknesses. Once you identify weakness in something, you address it in specificity. If that means taking a couple hours of bike time to shore up a weak swim stroke, or a couple hours of running time to adjust how you pedal, so be it.

For many people, there are external limiters such as work, family, etc. Those need to be factored in as well.

I emphasize the "train like a..." mantra in so far as doing each of the three disciplines in scale to what a X athlete would do. A competitive swimmer may be in the pool doing 10k yards a day. That's broken up into long sets, intervals, threshold, drills, form work, etc. If you can only be in the pool for 2k three times a week, then you have to still do the same as a swimmer, just in proportion. One session of 2k concentrate on middle/longer distance sets, with form work thrown in. One day intervals, form work thrown in. One day threshold, form work thrown in. (See a pattern here?) It's the same concepts, same stuff, just in lesser proportion.

Now, I also emphasize form work on the bike and running as well. High knee strides, butt kick strides, single leg cycling, riding at a lower speed/cadence and paying attention to what your ankle looks like, how you approach the power sections of the pedaling, etc etc.

The better your form, the more you will get out of your performance, because form is what you revert to when fitness starts to break down.

Train like a runner/swimmer/cyclist doesn't mean just go out and put in tons of distance (Unless you're in an off season build phase kind of thing). The smarter you train, the more results you will get out of it.

John

"Well said"  X2  I really like that statement - definitely worth remembering!

Dang, that is very cool. Well done Shane.

I agree that there is less emphasis on the swim, but I look at it like this. If I have a good swim and some of my competition has an average swim (let's say my :50 to their 1:10). To me that means that in the first hour of racing I got myself a 20 minute lead. Now they ride a 5 hr bike and it takes them all 5 hours to make up that deficit. Its a wash. Now, like others have said, it's just a foot race. And like I always tell people training for an Ironman, it's all about the run.

Yes, I know, my scenario is blown out the window if they swim an hour and ride a killer bike too, but come on, work with me people!

Edited by tjfry 2010-06-22 9:45 PM

What, this has gotten to 5 pages? Well, I'm going to feed my inner troll here too

Like tcovert said, there are tris that are pretty much equilateral, AND Redondo is a great example of a very successful, newbie-friendly one.

My own feeling on the half-iron distance is that there's just a little swim thrown in at the beginning so they can call it a triathlon.

As far as iron distance? Yes, it's still a teeny tiny part of it, BUT ... I don't care WHO you are, 2.4mi is a long-azz swim, especially with what still lies ahead. Also, if I'm not mistaken (frequently am) swimming is a great way to build your aerobic capacity for the long haul without beating your legs up so much.

Truth is at the longer distances (other than nobody would sign up for them with a huge, semi-equal swim) you get into some real logistical difficulties if you have a long swim in terms of venue/staffing, nutrition, etc.

And though I would dearly love a longer swim at the shorter distances, I'm much more in favor of keeping them newbie-friendly and inclusive (although, again, not mutually exclusive as per Redondo).

This user's post has been ignored.

Maybe if you think American football for a second...  A head coach knows a "team" is really made up of offense, defense and special teams.  Understanding the strengths and weaknesses allows the head coach to develop strategies accordingly.  In a playoff game against the Colts, the Patriots were pinned deep in their own territory with not much left in the game.  They were forced to punt.  However, the coach knew he had a great defense and field position was vital if he wanted his team to have a chance at scoring.  He intentionally ordered the special teams to take a safety so he could get a free kick and change the field position.  He had faith in the strength of his defense to hold the other team.  The plan worked and they went on to win the AFC Championship.  I hate the Patriots but you have to give credit to the coach for understanding his three areas and the overall strategy.  I see triathlons as not much different. 

(my stab at answering that question) 

Another thing I've seen is that quite a few of the super sprint or sprint races are held in or around pools. They cannot physically host all the people for the race in the pool at one time if they make all the times equal. This is how they end up with a 400 yard swim, 12 mile bike and 5k run

Lake sprints that I've seen have more reasonable and closer in time to the other two parts.

I consistently win my AG in the swim.  I'm a pretty average biker and runner.  If I swam the average swim time for my AG I'd drop a ton of spots.  I realize getting better on the other two would be of more value but since I'm a swimmer, that's where I can excel.  Plus, as a good swimmer I don't have to suffer with the pack, getting kicked or fear immediate drowning death, just  get out front and let it rip.  I am always amused by tris who downplay the swim, usually because they stink in the water. 


Edited by aquageek 2010-06-23 8:29 AM

They are trained separately, but it is how you put it ALL together on race day that matters. That's what makes it a single sport....the fact that they are all done back to back and your performance in one is directly related to the others.

It may not help you win, but it can definitely help you lose!