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Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread (Page 54)
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 2011-02-17 12:35 PM in reply to: #3006331 |
Elite  2645     Phoenix, AZ |  Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official ThreadI planned to walk the aid stations at IMAZ 2010, but after doing it once I lost patience. I ended up jogging all but the first aid station, and it was a great move. Walking is not a good pattern to get into unless you're executing some structured run/walk plan. I never walked during my long training runs, so why walk on race day. Keeping my legs moving turned out to be key to my shockingly awesome performance that day. |
| 2011-02-17 12:46 PM in reply to: #3006331 |
Elite 3495 SE | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread Daniel Josh is right and you just can't poopoo pacing. Pacing was the key for me. I am a BQ and have run a 3:06 standalone mary and can run 18 mins 5k but i set out to run the whole IMFL mary at 9 mins pace ending up at 8:53 pace. I read somewhere that 90+% of IM marys are run at >4hrs so I felt like that was a solid effort. This year I want faster but I will still run slowly for me to ensure I can hammer the last bit whatever that may be (last year it was the final mile). Im think close to 3:40 is doable if I let Shanks build me up properly. Last year and this, my training set me/is setting me up to run long periods of easy pace followed by a drop down in pace for the last 3-6 miles (e.g., 12 at easy 6 at steady =18miler). You have a great coach and he will do what you ask of him. IF the goal is to run the whole mary at IMCDA its up to him to train you to do it and for you to follow his orders on race day as regfards pacing. Im also upping run volume with Shanks' help this go around, so I am buying the BarryP plan too this year. Had a 40 mi week last week and long run was only 13 miles. OIn another note, I think people drink too little water (but eat/drink too much cals) too. I had a little aha experience that worked for me by accident at IMFL. I went to get bottled water for my Inviscid and all they had was flavored waters. All the plain was sold out. I was like "jeez! Im scrooed!" but I grabbed the lemon flavor water and used that and it made me want to drink more water during the bike because it was what i love to drink at work rather than the plain stuff. that might work for others too. AGAIN PACING IS THE KEY. You need to get comfortable running slower longer after your rides and on standalone runs if you aren't already. PSS I would never do IMLOU because Im a wuss and a clyde who wilts in the summer in the south. I may mustard up the courage to do Macon but it would be a hard decision... |
| 2011-02-17 12:58 PM in reply to: #3360118 |
Expert 1164 Roswell, GA | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread phatknot - 2011-02-17 1:46 PM PSS I would never do IMLOU because Im a wuss and a clyde who wilts in the summer in the south. I may mustard up the courage to do Macon but it would be a hard decision... Im from Macon (parents practically live on the Rock n'Rollman bike course). Did the entire route last year, outside of the actual race, and it kicked my butt. Seriously one of the hardest bikes I did last year. I know I have a serious problem with pacing. I ALWAYS start my runs out too hard (<7:30-7:15 pace) and end up slogging later (8:20-30 pace). I know that one of the most important things is pacing, so this is something that I have to fix. I tend to get really gung-ho when I start running, then settle into a proper pace. I should probably flip that and focus on negative splitting every run. |
| 2011-02-17 1:04 PM in reply to: #3006331 |
Master 3546 Millersville, MD | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread OH MY GOSH... I hope no one took my advice to mean take it easy on the bike after everything I've said here!!!! But thank you for clarifying. In training, cry on the bike and hun a tune on the run. PS -- you muster up the courage... the mustard is for your post-IM cheeseburger. I have great respect for some of the coaches I see in the signatures here on this thread, but will stand my ground. It is my opinion that 100 mile months (granted, I have no idea what the effort of those 100 miles is) generally leave you unprepared to really execute an IM marathon. No doubt, many people finish an IM on far less than that... but there is no substitute for mileage (maybe a few assists, but no substitute) if you want to run a kick-a$$ marathon. |
| 2011-02-17 1:37 PM in reply to: #3360171 |
Master 5557 , California | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread OH MY GOSH... I hope no one took my advice to mean take it easy on the bike after everything I've said here!!!! But thank you for clarifying. In training, cry on the bike and hun a tune on the run. Sorry Josh -- I knew you were referring to the run. Just wanted to throw that in there in case people don't want to flip through all the pages on this thread  |
| 2011-02-17 4:04 PM in reply to: #3358609 |
Veteran 526 Richmond | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread dfrash_1 - 2011-02-16 3:12 PM Anyone that knows me since I started training would laugh at my saying I needed an alarm to remind me to eat! Seems like I'm constantly planning food, packing food, eating food, logging food or talking about food! All the other hours I'm training. No wonder I'm consumed by this! LOL! My wife would say the same about me and food "add cooking/preparing food". I still need to figure this one out and think phatknot is right to track it, which I don't and will start. I also like the idea of marking the bottle, so you don't have to remember how much to drink by when. |
| 2011-02-17 5:10 PM in reply to: #3355181 |
Expert 694 WA | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread kstater39 - 2011-02-14 5:37 AM Hey guys and gals. I am in need of some new cycling shoes and was looking for opinions. I would love to hear praises and negatives of any tri shoes you own or have owned. Happy training. I purchased some Pearl Izumi road bike shoes and the toebox was pretty tight which caused my toes to squish together and be uncomfortable during long rides. A couple of toes would actually start to over lap each other. One other thing that bothered me is when I was on a long ride and it rained, the rain built up in my shoe (no drainage), my feet were sloshing around in the shoe. I then picked up some Shimano Tri Bike Shoes and they are known (supposedly) to have a bigger toe box, which was much more comfortable for me to ride in. Since they are "Tri" shoes they have a hole at the bottom so water drains out if it rains or if you get out of the swim really wet. The other thing I like about these shoes is they come with ONE velcro strap to close and open the shoe (good for fast transitions). Good luck with your show selection. |
| 2011-02-17 5:14 PM in reply to: #3360688 |
Master 3546 Millersville, MD | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread RunRene - 2011-02-17 6:10 PM Since they are "Tri" shoes they have a hole at the bottom so water drains out if it rains or if you get out of the swim really wet. You forgot the third reason tri shoes have drain holes. |
| 2011-02-17 8:21 PM in reply to: #3355181 |
Veteran 526 Richmond | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread kstater39 - 2011-02-14 7:37 PM Hey guys and gals. I am in need of some new cycling shoes and was looking for opinions. I would love to hear praises and negatives of any tri shoes you own or have owned. Happy training. I bought some Louis Garneau Tri Lite Shoes last year at the beginning of the season and they work great for me. However, they are the only ones I've owned, so I don't have much of a benchmark, n=1. They were recommended to me from my mentor though. http://www.powertri.com/bike/cycling-shoes/louis-garneau-tri-lite-shoe.aspx |
| 2011-02-18 8:44 AM in reply to: #3360692 |
Champion 7347 SRQ, FL | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread JoshKaptur - 2011-02-17 6:14 PM RunRene - 2011-02-17 6:10 PM Since they are "Tri" shoes they have a hole at the bottom so water drains out if it rains or if you get out of the swim really wet. You forgot the third reason tri shoes have drain holes. Note to self, do not ask to borrow Josh's shoes  |
| 2011-02-18 9:06 AM in reply to: #3361389 |
Master 3546 Millersville, MD | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread TriRSquared - 2011-02-18 9:44 AM JoshKaptur - 2011-02-17 6:14 PM RunRene - 2011-02-17 6:10 PM Since they are "Tri" shoes they have a hole at the bottom so water drains out if it rains or if you get out of the swim really wet. You forgot the third reason tri shoes have drain holes. Note to self, do not ask to borrow Josh's shoes Truthfully, my shoes have never been mellow-yellowed... though you risk a penalty, I prefer a whip-it-out and go to the side when you find yourself coasting a gradual downhill and no one is around (or someone is drafting). This is something that should be practiced in training (may require unclipping one shoe) because it would stink to crash in this compromised state. *thankful I'm a boy* |
| 2011-02-18 9:13 AM in reply to: #3006331 |
Expert 1164 Roswell, GA | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread Seriously, how do you train to pee on the bike???? I have tried before in training, but nothing. Not that I intend to do it in the race....but if push comes to shove.... |
| 2011-02-18 9:25 AM in reply to: #3006331 |
Veteran 490 Dallas | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread So, sticking on the run topic. One thing I do not like about Fink's Comepetitive Plan is the proposed running schedule. Not a single run over 1:30 until mid-April? After that, a whopping 3 runs total over 2:30 and he is calling for all them to be Z1 or Z2. That seems like a plan for epic failure if you want to run a 4 hour marathon or better. Having run about 500 miles for NYC and Boston, I did about twice as many long runs as he is suggesting and they were not Z1-Z2 runs. I'm not interested in doing well on my swim and bike only to crater on the run at mile 16 becuase I was not properly prepared. So the question is what's the right volume and training plan for an Ironman (assuming you did not kill yourself on the bike) to hit a 4 hour marathon? Note that would be about 50 minutes off my normal marathon pace. To date, I'm using my NYC plan for my runs and cutting out one of the mid week runs |
| 2011-02-18 10:20 AM in reply to: #3361430 |
Champion 7347 SRQ, FL | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread JoshKaptur - 2011-02-18 10:06 AM TriRSquared - 2011-02-18 9:44 AM JoshKaptur - 2011-02-17 6:14 PM RunRene - 2011-02-17 6:10 PM Since they are "Tri" shoes they have a hole at the bottom so water drains out if it rains or if you get out of the swim really wet. You forgot the third reason tri shoes have drain holes. Note to self, do not ask to borrow Josh's shoes Truthfully, my shoes have never been mellow-yellowed... though you risk a penalty, I prefer a whip-it-out and go to the side when you find yourself coasting a gradual downhill and no one is around (or someone is drafting). This is something that should be practiced in training (may require unclipping one shoe) because it would stink to crash in this compromised state. *thankful I'm a boy* Or, for those of us who have NO chance of ever KQing... just stop at the porta-potty |
| 2011-02-18 11:00 AM in reply to: #3006331 |
| Veteran 140 Longmont, Colorado | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread I'm sure this is a question of the ages...how do I run faster?I'm following the intermediate 20 wk plan and would really like to keep a sub 10min/mile pace for the run. The plan has HR and duration as guidance not pace or distance and I'd love some input on how to reach my goal. More detail:My z2 pace is around 11:30/mile while a 10:00/mile puts me into z4, which is uncomfortable but I can maintain for about an hour or so (really watching the clock when doing this -- "never realized how long a second could be"). I've also recently had a gait analysis and the guy told me, "when you told me your pace, I thought you'd be a biomechanical mess...you're fine, you just need to run faster." ...well, thanks!!! (I am working on a 170 cadence and hip abductor exercises as well as a mid foot strike).I am about 6' and 185lbs (so shedding a couple pounds could help, but its not a primary weight issue) and I completed a HIM last yr (yes, slow also) and a HM (12:00 pace)My concern is that if I continue to follow the plan which is mostly z2 work, can I expect much improvement in pace over the next 19 weeks? Is there a way to bridge the gap? I don't have much margin for error - either not being prepared for the distance (never completed 26.2) or getting injured by pacing/pushing too hard. Is my goal reasonable and has anyone else overcome this type of situation?Thanks! Cam |
| 2011-02-18 2:25 PM in reply to: #3006331 |
Master 3546 Millersville, MD | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread I've already shared a lot about my feelings regarding ironman training with a run focus. For anyone who hasn't yet, I'll drop a link to the articles on this topic that revolutionized the way I thought about it... and are the biggest credit (in my own estimation) to my IM marathon of 3:32 (I had run as slow as a 4:24 open marathon in the past... so am not naturally gifted as a runner). Parts 1-3 are all you need to read, though there are some very interesting discussions below as well. |
| 2011-02-18 2:39 PM in reply to: #3361468 |
Master 3546 Millersville, MD | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread 3Aims - 2011-02-18 10:25 AM So, sticking on the run topic. One thing I do not like about Fink's Comepetitive Plan is the proposed running schedule. Not a single run over 1:30 until mid-April? After that, a whopping 3 runs total over 2:30 and he is calling for all them to be Z1 or Z2. That seems like a plan for epic failure if you want to run a 4 hour marathon or better. Having run about 500 miles for NYC and Boston, I did about twice as many long runs as he is suggesting and they were not Z1-Z2 runs. I'm not interested in doing well on my swim and bike only to crater on the run at mile 16 becuase I was not properly prepared. So the question is what's the right volume and training plan for an Ironman (assuming you did not kill yourself on the bike) to hit a 4 hour marathon? Note that would be about 50 minutes off my normal marathon pace. To date, I'm using my NYC plan for my runs and cutting out one of the mid week runs Don't fall into the mistake most people make in run training... running their easy runs too hard, and their hard runs too easy. The purpose of that long Z2 run is general endurance. You likely have other runs in your week where you work on your pacing, lactate threshhold, etc (though I would argue the single thing you most need for IM run is endurance... save almost all of your hard work for the bike/swim). If you can run an easy 2:30 and feel like it wasn't taxing, that's good news. Don't worry... it definitely still has a fitness benefit, and if you're being honest you are now ready have a short recovery run tomorrow morning and to hammer the bike tomorrow afternoon as opposed to needing a day off. Unfortunately, there is no single answer to your question in bold. It is completely dependent on your gift, background, training in other disciplines, ability to recovery, etc. In general, the following principle is true... the more/harder you run without getting injured, the faster you will be on race day. I've argued at length that there is strong evidence to suggest the safest way to do that (with lower injury risk) is to gravitate big time towards the "more" part of that equation. If I was your coach and if you gave me control of your schedule, I would have you building to a run of at least 6 days a week (eventually 7 days, with a few two-a-days), and aiming for pretty high volume. I would tell you no speedwork no matter how much complaining you did. I would also have you crying for your mother after my bike workouts so that you wouldn't be asking me for run speedwork. I have no idea what your background is, so I have no idea if that would take 2 months or 10 months. Once we got you to around 50 miles per week, and only if your schedule wouldn't allow us to add more volume, I would give you one weekly marathon-paced 3-6 mile run, OR one tempo paced 2-4 mile run (starting out as low as 1-2 miles and building slowly)... probably in the middle of one of your 2 scheduled medium runs. Throughout the plan, I would also have you race a 10K every 4-6 weeks to document that you were making significant progress (and to re-set your training zones) without the speedwork. |
| 2011-02-18 2:41 PM in reply to: #3362125 |
Elite 2645 Phoenix, AZ | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread JoshKaptur - 2011-02-18 12:25 PM I've already shared a lot about my feelings regarding ironman training with a run focus. For anyone who hasn't yet, I'll drop a link to the articles on this topic that revolutionized the way I thought about it... and are the biggest credit (in my own estimation) to my IM marathon of 3:32 (I had run as slow as a 4:24 open marathon in the past... so am not naturally gifted as a runner). Parts 1-3 are all you need to read, though there are some very interesting discussions below as well. I don't know who you are, but everything you just said is spot on. |
| 2011-02-18 2:42 PM in reply to: #3361668 |
Master 3546 Millersville, MD | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread cam111 - 2011-02-18 12:00 PM I'm sure this is a question of the ages...how do I run faster?I'm following the intermediate 20 wk plan and would really like to keep a sub 10min/mile pace for the run. don't make the mistake of training towards a pace you want... rather train based on the pace you can do, and you will get faster, and then train based on that pace. It's not until about 2 months out from the race that anyone has any business predicting their pace... this is major reason lot's of people get hurt... and a major reason lots of people go out too hard on race day and then run well under their desired pace. If the best you can do based on the shape you are in at the time is 10:30, then going out at 10:00 is likely going to mean you average 12:00s for the race. However, if that same person goes out at 10:40 they'll be more than a half hour faster. The plan has HR and duration as guidance not pace or distance and I'd love some input on how to reach my goal. More detail:My z2 pace is around 11:30/mile while a 10:00/mile puts me into z4, which is uncomfortable but I can maintain for about an hour or so (really watching the clock when doing this -- "never realized how long a second could be"). I've also recently had a gait analysis and the guy told me, "when you told me your pace, I thought you'd be a biomechanical mess...you're fine, you just need to run faster." ...well, thanks!!! (I am working on a 170 cadence and hip abductor exercises as well as a mid foot strike).I am about 6' and 185lbs (so shedding a couple pounds could help, but its not a primary weight issue) and I completed a HIM last yr (yes, slow also) and a HM (12:00 pace)My concern is that if I continue to follow the plan which is mostly z2 work, can I expect much improvement in pace over the next 19 weeks? YES Is there a way to bridge the gap? I don't have much margin for error - either not being prepared for the distance (never completed 26.2) or getting injured by pacing/pushing too hard. you don't have to choose... building your volume to cover the distance will make you faster too, without much if any speework. And getting injured is the surest way to make your speedwork meaningless. It's not like on race day you can show up with IT band or plantar fascia issues and take comfort in the fact that you ran a few 7:30 mile repeats a few months ago. Is my goal reasonable and has anyone else overcome this type of situation?Thanks! Cam Edited by JoshKaptur 2011-02-18 2:50 PM |
| 2011-02-18 3:54 PM in reply to: #3006331 |
| Master 5557 , California | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread I am about 6' and 185lbs (so shedding a couple pounds could help, but its not a primary weight issue) Even if weight loss is not your primary goal, you'll probably lose a few pounds if you continue to build volume like Josh said. And that'll help you on both the bike and run. I usually race about 10lbs lighter than my winter weight, with no significant changes in diet. It's just the ramp-up of training volume for me. |
| 2011-02-18 4:31 PM in reply to: #3362292 |
New user 35 Cave Creek, Az | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread Josh- you mentioned run volume at 50 miles /wk. Is that what you guys are doing now or next month? I currently have two a days every day except for the day I do my long ride. Plus 4 days also have gym/strength workouts. If I add more running now something would have to give. My guess is you'll say trade a gym workout for another run or leave as is for now? |
| 2011-02-20 1:22 PM in reply to: #3362339 |
Elite 3495 SE | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread I started the year off with 2x/wk in the gym, now am down to 1x in order to get one more swim in. Try and do a bit more (.5 hr) if I get a chance and feel like it. Shanks is bringing the house this week @ me. This looks like my first real IM training week on paper. 200 mi on the bike including 2 long rides/bricks (80/4 and 70/3), 40 mi running and 4 hours pool time. Throwing that one hour gym time seems more like a nuisance than anything else now. Plus I have to account for the soreness. Having said all of that, my goal is always to average about 1 hour per week per year in the gym or 50 hours total. I believe the kind of things I do in the gym translate well (lots of core and functional stuff) and help build mental toughness as well as strength. If you are going to be increasing your run volume, I am sure Josh would advise you to do it gradually as would BarryP, the program writer. You really need to get a rudimentary understanding of the program if you are going with the high run volume approach and you are self-coaching. Fortunately, I have a coach that I pay to dole out the pain and learn the ways to stress my body and let it adapt. If i didn't y'all might not be reading this post because I'd have killed myself by training too hard by now. |
| 2011-02-20 8:02 PM in reply to: #3361668 |
Veteran 468 STATESBORO, GA | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread cam111 - 2011-02-18 11:00 AM I'm sure this is a question of the ages...how do I run faster?.. My z2 pace is around 11:30/mile while a 10:00/mile puts me into z4, which is uncomfortable but I can maintain for about an hour i CAN assure you that I do not have the knowledge base or the speed of everyone else on this group. However, I do have the experience that you do with naturally being a 12 minute mile runner. I came from no athletic background. Rode bulls in college and lifted weights all through life. However, when I started tri'ing at 39 I had never ran more than 1.5 miles strait. I would agree with what has been said that it is simply miles, speed work thrown in, and add two big additions - patience and realistic expectations. Again, I have no great story. I looked like I was athletic when I started. I have lost 15-20 pounds and look "skinny" now but weight was not my issue. I do not have a heart issue, etc. I was just born slow. However, Saturday I ran a half marathon at a 1:47 or close to a 8 min/mile pace. I never thought this was possible. However, it took 2.5 years to do it and miles and miles. I do not do the volume that alot of folks on the board do. My body is still adjusting to more miles. Also I am still learning what works for me. I just wanted to let you know that people like us do get faster if we train smart like has been said. A coach has done that for me. However, you can do it on your own if you have the time to learn how to coach yourself. However, BE PATIENT. Take each accomplishment as it comes and enjoy it. Do not get pissed when you run a 9:30 pace at zn 4 for a 5 k because you wanted a 9 min pace if you had only a 9:30 in the tank. Be happy with what you accomplish and train smart. Train like you are training to win Kona but only compete against your yesterday or last year or whatever. But train against yourself. There is no shame in a 12 min pace if it was truly all you had in the tank. I can tell you this - if Chrissy Welington pushes harder than what I pushed Saturday for my PR then God Bless her she earns her victories. Because I had nothing left in me, near me, or anywhere around me. To many people what is important is the number 2:40 marathon etc. I think what matters is how you suck the all you have out through a smart well thought out plan that allows you to effeciently win your goal - which in our case is swimming/biking/running as close as possible to our maximum potential to each and still finish strong. Who really cares about the number unless you are one of the gifted ones who have the ability and the discipline to really strive for a kona spot. The rest of us are competing against ourself - the rest is a contest(Imho) |
| 2011-02-20 8:05 PM in reply to: #3006331 |
Veteran 468 STATESBORO, GA | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread bt edited my last comment. "the rest is just a "urinating" contest". I will try to be nicer with my wording |
| 2011-02-21 9:10 AM in reply to: #3362339 |
Pro 3883 Woodstock,GA | Subject: RE: Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread dfrash_1 - 2011-02-18 5:31 PM Josh- you mentioned run volume at 50 miles /wk. Is that what you guys are doing now or next month? I currently have two a days every day except for the day I do my long ride. Plus 4 days also have gym/strength workouts. If I add more running now something would have to give. My guess is you'll say trade a gym workout for another run or leave as is for now? Be very, very careful with trying to increase your run mileage to 50mpw. I looked at your logs but since you are relatively new here they don't have enough information to give an informed opinion about what to do next. Right now you probably don't need 4 gym/strength workouts, you could cut back to 2 hours of strength training and do some core work for 15-20 minutes on 2 other days per week. As race day gets closer you will want to move to "strength maintenance" mode and just do some easier strength workouts (i.e. body weight stuff, resistance bands, TRX). |
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