The "No Kids Club" (Page 6)

I didnt marry til 39. Dated my husband for 5 years prior and although at first he was in the camp of not wanting any kids, he changed his mind (or wanted me to be happy) so agreed to kids. However, long story short, between age, anatomical issues, and cost and uncertainty of invetro, we decided to adopt. I became a mom at 40.
Although at times it has been the hardest thing I've done (right up there with quitting smoking ), being a parent has opened my world up to many new lessons, adventures, and journeys. Some people parent til the kid moves out, but like my parents, I'll always be a parent and worry and protect on some level...it's a life time commitment.

Quick and easy snipet:  "Census Bureau projections suggest that the level of fertility in many countries will drop below replacement level before 2050... In 1990 the world's women, on average, were giving birth to 3.3 children over their lifetimes. By 2002 the average was 2.6, and by 2009, 2.5. This is marginally above the global replacement fertility of 2.33. This fall has been accompanied by a decline in the world's population growth rate and in the actual annual population increase." - wikipedia.  (Can double check the numbers with UN population division and census bureau).

Concentration of the populations is what generally gives the perception of "overpopulation", not the actual number.

The more developed a country is, the lower the birth rate.  I credit this to having more to do than chew gum and "eat pizza", in more developed countries.

Natural resources remain finite regardless of population increase or decrease.  We will run out eventually whether there are 100 billion people or 100 million; the population size only changes the date at which that happens.  Seems to me a separate issue.  Renewabliity seems to be the real issue.

Food supply is a correlated issue.  Monsanto seems to come up with some pretty good answers to it though.

Long term result of declining populations is long term recession.  less people to buy and use things, means less production needed to supply the lower demand.  and by long term I mean REALLY LONG TERM, like generations long term.




Edited by jgaither 2010-08-13 12:23 PM

So that would be an even greater reason to not have kids.  One should want the population, as a whole, do decrease.  So helping to continue the replacement rate lowering is a GOOD thing.

I would think you'd want the population to stay the same???????  I'm not sure I understand your reasoning.

If there continues to be a decline, eventually a population moves into extinction.  I believe the critical birth rate is 1.3.  I'd have to verify that.  But I believe that no population has ever survived or come back from a birth rate lower than that.

Hello

I just joined the "No Kids Club"

Daughter married and living in GA.
Son just graduated college and serving in the AF living in Florida.

Still getting use to not having them around.

Kevin

No, I would want the population to decrease.  I honestly don't think that there is even a remote possibility of the human race becoming extinct. 

So, if the birth rate decreases, less people (on a global scale) and that is a good thing.  IMHO

I agree that I don't think the human race would go extinct.  There would be a conscious effort to increase the birth rate back to above replacement levels were that to ever become a serious issue.

The selfish, selflessness talk is interesting.....

Fact is, the decision to have or not have kids is based on selfish and selfless actions.

I have 2 boys, and very happy to have them.  They offer so much to myself and my wife.  My reasons for wanting kids was selfish, as I wanted to carry on the family name, wanted to have children around, wanted to love a child, etc.  I accepted everything that comes along with that.  Having a child is also a very selfless act, because you know you will be taking the responsibility to care for another person, and provide the unconditional love that person requires.  There is a very real selfless act to having a child and raising them.

On the other hand, I have a brother who is in the "no kids" camp.  No one in the family ever says anything degrading to them at all, or faults them for a thing.  Why should they?  They are grown adults that have talked about it, talked about family dynamics that affected them, and decided it may not be best for them.  Deciding to not have kids is a selfish act and selfless act.  Selfish, because people don't want the responsibility, the bother, the waking up at 2am (many reasons to list).  The selfless act, is taking the appropriate considerations and making a "logical" decision for you and your SO.  To me, it's a selfless act to decide not to have a child, if it's not going to be best for the child.

If your having a child for selfish reasons only, it's best to not bring that child into that world.  Same thing probably applies the other way, if you are NOT having a child for only selfish reasons, it's best to not bring that child into the world.

Interesting discussions on this.....

As far as "logic" goes in the decision making, that never crossed my mind.  There are logical reasons to have a child, but I'm not sure those need to be part of the decision to have a child.

I bet having busy parents with demanding careers was a heck of a lot better than never being born.

I'm going to be totally selfish and say that I'm glad my parents had me, I'm glad I was born and I don't care about the population.  I am happy that I'm alive and I will (hopefully) be adding to the population problem in the next few years.

Edited by hamiltks10 2010-08-13 3:17 PM

I didn't think I wanted them and made a choice not to have them, but something changed when I reached my late 30s.  I decided I wanted kids.  Found a guy who was in a similar situation (he was already early 40s).  We made the decision to have kids before we decided to get married LOL.  So our lives went like this "honeymoon", pregnant, married, first child, pregnant, my 40th birthday, second child. We have several couple friends who also made the choice not to have kids and then at the 11th hour changed their minds.  Speaking of kids, I'd better go and get them.

I don't how to put this without coming across condescendingly (difficult in a setting like this), but you are 23.  Your brain has not finished changing (from a neurologic perspective).  You are a first year med student.  You literally have no idea how much your identity, your values, and your thoughts will change as a result of the next three years of schooling, not to mention residency. I have no idea if you will or will not end up changing your mind about children, but as someone who went through those things, and works with med students on a regular basis, I see this a lot.  I see them come into their psych rotation, for example, not "believing in psychiatry", and leaving seriously considering it as a career choice, for example.  In one instance, an ex-SEAL, who came from a military culture, and considered most of it to be "weakness" or some sort of character failing, ended up planning to go into psych (sadly, and in an unrelated note, he died right before graduation in a dive accident).  Of course, a lot of students who rotate through child psych with me end up saying "I'm never having kids" 

And I have a good friend, who all through med school and residency said she never wanted to have kids.  She ended up having a daughter right after residency, and eventually decided to work part time in order to spend more time with her daughter, who just finished high school.

My point is that at your stage of life and training, don't be so certain that you know what you will be like in the next 5-10 years and what you will want your life to look like. 

That's fine. I respect your opinion as someone who has already been down the path so to speak. I am fully aware that I have 0 idea of what will happen with my life. Med school has already made changes to who I am in a year, I can imagine many other things are going to occur as well. All I have said is that I don't want kids based on who I am right. Along with finishing school and residency I am dabbling with MD/PhD...Something has got to give somewhere. I'm not saying that I know it all...but there are decisions I need to make now as a 23 yr old which will possibly interfere with any future desire/ability to have kids.

I am not typically a person who changes their mind, but who knows? You are right circumstances change--maybe meeting the right person, having more exposure to kids, etc will change me mind. But I have never thought of myself having kids and have been this way since my early teens before that I can't really remember thinking about it, but I never wanted to "be a Mommy", etc. I remember some of my friends telling me that I was going to die alone if I didn't have kids when I was older when I was about 12-13. Helpful.  

As far as specialty: internal medicine...possibly nephrology. Wait and see what happens

I'm just impressed you read that long boring post all the way to the bottom!!

You know, we went to Disney several years ago as a couple. It was a trip with my husbands family. We were the only ones without kids. We loved it. Only went on rides we wanted to try, got called ahead in lines because there were just two of us, quit the parks whenever we felt like it. We thought we had it the best out of everyone!

This year we took a trip to Disney with our 2 little ones. We did whatever the kids wanted, (jungle cruise ride 5 times), standing in line to see characters, at the parks for 12 hours a day. It put the other trip to shame. Can't really explain it. I totally understand not wanting kids and I totally understand thinking they are the greatest.

But yes, we thought about the pros and cons and absolutely knew what we were getting into. I was a preschool teacher for 13 years before adopting our son, my husband a high school teacher. I lived with my sister and her two children while I was in college so I saw first hand the sleepless nights and busy days. People always told us what you said "you would make great parents". 
 
I'm staying out of the population discussion as my children are both adopted and I didn't help populate anything............

I have two wonderful daughters -  would like to have a few more.  I keep trying to practice but my wife keeps telling me to go ride my bike not her.  She's definitely done with raising more children

Oh well - I'll keep trying to wear her down

A lot of people ask themselvs that age old question "what is my purpose in life".  I always wondered until I had my first, Colby!  When I realized I was given a gift, a life, totally dependant upon me and my wife, I realized then and there exactly what God put me here for.  Now I have 2 more girls and my life was nothing until they came into it!

It's not easy and it's not for everyone, but the return on investment is immeasurable and infinite!

Edited by hrliles 2010-08-14 7:27 PM

Interesting discussion. My husband and I (married 12 years) are in the No Kids by Choice camp. For a long time we were like "they aren't for us but you never know if we'll change our minds" camp. Then a medical situation forced us to decide to either seal the deal of not having them or become much more comfortable with the likelihood that we could have them. We thought long and hard about our decision and eventually sealed the deal about 5 years ago.

We got a ton of pressure from family and friends not to do it. To leave the option open and even now my mom is always like "are you guys considering adoption?"

We love our nephews and we love our friends kids. We just decided that our lifestyle wasn't conducive to kids ourselves. It is is a very important choice and to many people look at our lives enviously and say we wish we could travel and stay out late and go away for a weekend on a moment's notice, to which I always say "you could have. I made a different choice than you. Not better or worse, just different."

There's nothing wrong with people who choose not to have kids but it is a very lonely decision and over the years as nearly every friend I have has started their families I've had to deal with the heaps of guilt and countless hours of talk about pregnancy, baby food and the minutia of the babies lives. I just miss my friends and the ability to have a grown-up conversation with them for more than 5 minutes on something that doesn't involve the baby

I'm not sure if this counts, but I had kids when I was married and they now live with me and my girlfriend every other week.  With my current relationship there is no prospect of future kids.  So, I fall into both camps, "kids" and "no kids" depending on the week.  And I can tell you from experience, the grass is green on both sides of the fence. 

Would not have married my wife if she had wanted kids.  I don't want them.  She doesn't want them.  I got fixed so we won't have them.

EVERY married friend we have has at one point or another made a similar comment to us..."I love my kids, but if I had to do it all over again I am not sure I would have kids."

And stop asking me when we are going to start a family...we ARE a family.

Like!

 

Not exactly.  You are a couple; possibly even a commited couple.  But a family is the people that you are stuck with, no matter what else happens.  You and mrs chichitao could get divorced, and have nothing further to do with one another forever (especially without kids).  But your kids are your kids for the rest of your life, and even if they prove to be terrible disappointments and failures in life, you will still be concerned about them. Unless, you know, you decided to be terrible parents from the beginning. 

Wow, I am so sorry! No purpose in life before kids?

I feel the complete opposite- I have so much purpose in life, so much happiness, and so many things to do with my life, that I have no compelling desire or reason to give all of that up to have kids. I know it's extreme to say it that way, but essentially, if I choose to have kids, I can no longer have the life I lead now- the kid would be the absolute #1 priority, and every choice I make would be about putting them first. I LOVE my life how it is, and have no desire to be forced to give up how I live for someone else. Since I have no true desire to have kids, no mothering gene or whatever, I really don't see why I would have them. Believe me, I am NOT missing out on something that I just don't want. But I can also understand how much love people have for their kids. Our species would not survive if people didn't automatically fall in love with their own offspring- but if I don't have them, I'm not missing it....

And by the way- I love kids, love people with kids, am great with kids and always get the comment 'you would be such a great mom!' And I am- to my dog I just wish that it weren't such a big deal to choose NOT to have them.

So couples who medically can't have kids aren't a family?!?! Parents who loose their children aren't a family? What are you basing this on?

Does our cat count?  Cuz, you know, he keeps coming back for food.

And BTW:

fam·i·ly
1. a. A fundamental social group in society typically consisting of one or two parents and their children.

Edited by ChrisM 2010-08-16 7:19 PM