JohnnyKay and Fred Doucette's HIM/IM focused Mentor group-CLOSED (Page 6)

This is a good takeaway for me.  Muskoka is a really hilly course, so it makes sense to aim for the lower end of the range.  Especially since they throw in a tough run after a tough ride.

Here are my approx splits from my 3 past HIM's. I am currently at a VDOT of 44 after testing a 46:xx 10k last year. With regards to the link sent on running at certain percentages it is clear I am not reaching my potential on the run. While my times have gone down, they have not by a significant amount. On all three of these HIM's only High Cliff did I not feel "fresh" for the run (I was sick all week prior) but for the other 2 I felt great getting off the bike, but still when the run came I couldn't deliver. Is this possible because of bad fitness on either of the three disciplines? Lack of base? Speedwork? Or was I just overpushing my bike? I ask this because I feel that I should be able to run under 2 hours but I seem to come up well short, and now as I am writing my training schedule for this summer I need more insight to what my limiter is to produce a solid run.

2009 Lake Geneva HIM: Bike 3:00:00 (flat), Run 2:20:00 (Very hilly)

2010 High Cliff HIM: Bike 2:58:00 (flat w/ rollers), Run 2:10:00 (large hill ran once, XC course)

2010 Racine 70.3:  Bike 2:39:00 (flat), Run 2:06:00 (Flat)

1. On the swim I have problems pacing.  All of the pacing in my swim workouts is based on my 800 TT time, so I generally train at 1:30 - 1:40 per one hundred and should swim in a race in the 1:20s / 100.  The problem is I'm really bad at holding a pace in a race.  If I find a good set of feet, I can maintain my race pace.  Without someone around to "help" me pace, I tend to go out too slow. 

2. I have a Quark, but I train solely based on HR (but I record watts for my coach -- just like in the run, I train based solely on HR but record paces for my coach).  I have no watts targets when training (I also have no idea what my FTP is) but I race according to power.  Based on my training watts, my coach sets a watts target for races.  For a HIM my watts targets are generally about what I put out for 20 Min intervals.  For a full IM the watts target is slightly less. 

My corresponding HR for a HIM effort is high Z3/low Z4 on the Friel scale, for a full its high Z2/lowZ3 on the Friel scale.  I'm racing Rev 3 Quassy in June, which is a super hilly course, its going to be really interesting for me to see how well I can maintain my watts target with the hills.

In other thoughts, I arrived in Clermont, FL last night.  I'm here for a 4 day camp at the National Training Center.  It should be a really great four days -- I'm battling a little with allergies/asthma at the moment so I'm hoping it doesn't affect me too much.

Great question, and I'll be interested to know how people pace + what may/could work best.  I'm a slow swimmer, and even though I've tried to improve my times they don't seem to get quicker, so I want to mostly focus on swimming to be fresher for the bike/run.  Currently 1000yd TT sees me at 1:39/100Yd.  I'm assuming I should be able to hold close to this pace in a wetsuit for a HIM, or am I kidding myself a bit with this?

Power on the bike, and I plan to base all my short race pacing against FTP/CP.  HIM later in the season, so I plan to use a combination of FTP/CP values + what I learn from longer rides at different intensities over the next few months.

I run with a Garmin, and up to this point have been of the mindset that I pay attention to pace, and unless HR is really out of whack then I don't give a lot of attention to it.  Zone 2 vs 3, little bit in 4, no big deal.  After spending time in Fred's last group I'm now revising that and am trying to focus on 4 runs per week, two with some intensity where pace is key, 1 shorter, easier run in Z1/2, and my long run in the week will be kept in Z1/2.  Although I may let this slide for a couple of short spells in the next couple of weeks to remind myself what a higher intensity feels like later in the run as I get ready for my HM.

1. Yes, I have done a 1000 m time trial. I have issues pacing in a longer race just like Kelly. In fact copy her answer word for word! I end up swimming at my comfortable pace instead of my race pace and always feel like I could have tried harder. Our race is two loops. We have to exit the water and shout out our race  number after the first loop then get back in. I was planning on wearing a watch and checking my time after the first loop to gauge my pace a little better. I hope to practice this in the lake at different effort levels so I can see what a realistic time should be. 

2. Bike pacing - I am trying RPE. It is hard for me to gauge though. We are always pushing against the wind here. I have a hard time watching my mph plummet when I'm riding into the wind. Then I always try to make up for the time lost when the wind is at my back. I wanted to learn how to train by heart rate this winter but I did not feel confident in my ability to complete a threshold test on my own and get accurate info from it.

I am learning pace from race experience too. I have done the same Oly for the last 2 years. My first year I had no expectations and just maintained an easy pace. I had a great race and won my age group (I was the only one in my age group ). Last year I thought I should improve my time but we had 20 mph winds and I was knocked around a lot in the swim. I pushed too hard on the bike and my legs were shredded on the run. I improved my time by 4 minutes but was 4th in my age group and did not have one ounce of fun for the whole race. I'm realizing it is a trade off for me. I can either except that I am not as fast as I want to be and enjoy the race or continue to out pace myself and hate every minute!

I'm a super slow swimmer and haven't done much over the winter.  My HIM plan has a couple 1000m TT to set training paces.  I really have no idea what pace I can swim with consistent training (plan has me swimming 3 - 4 times/9 day cycle) so these TT will be helpful in planning my training efforts.

On the bike and run I've used HR in the past and in my case I need it to ensure I'm working hard enough.  I have no problem staying in Zone 2 but need a lot of mental pushing to get up to Z4, and the HR monitor helps with this.  I plan to use HR to up my training intensity.  Not sure I'll use it to race though... Muskoka bike is so hilly I think attempting a constant effort by RPE will work better than HR monitoring.

1. Bike fitness and pacing. What are your rides like. How hard are they. How hard an effort was the race bike split? How is your bike endurance?

Last year I wasn't as knowledgeable about the different ways to train on the bike and most of my rides would be either in zone 2 (long rides) or race pace (145-150). I would do some intervals and hill repeats as well, but my intervals were never more then 1-3 minutes. Looking back on this a year later with the knowledge I have gained I would say that a lot of my rides were" junk" miles. I plan on doing more TT'ing this year and adding in intervals into my longer rides as well and doing intervals of 15, 20, and maybe even 30 mins. I looked back and I rode my HIM splits last year at 143 and 145 bpm which seem to be low effort (my IM pace). My bike endurance seems to be strong, but that seems to be because I never push that hard and so my effort can sustain for a much longer time period. I can already tell that I have some work to do with the few intervals I have done outside of such 6x10 min where I am really hurting on that sisth interval.

2. Swim fitness and pacing? What were your swim splits? What is your best time in the pool for a 1,000 yard TT? How much do you swim?

My swim splits range from 35-40 min and I swam 1:15 at IM last year. A big note about this was I swam 100K TOTAL last year as I couldn't swim until April of last year due to a broken arm and dislocated shoulder. Still when I was swimming I would swim 4-5K a week and 6K would be huge for me. My 500 time was around 8:10, and I swam most of my other TT's around the 1:38 pace. This year with more time evoted in the water and doing masters I have lowered my 500 to a 7:08 time and I can swim strongly at a 1:30-1:32 pace but I still have to do a longer distance TT. Last year I swam 2-3 times a week this year right now is 3-4 and I am hoping to swim 4-5 during my training block for Racine.

3. Run fitness/endurance? Weekly miles, how many? How many longer runs?

Run is my weakness period. Generally I run about 20 miles a week in training and about 15 in my base. Long runs is where it gets hard for me, and last year I didn't have too many of those. My long runs in the spring last year were weekly around 6-10 miles, but once June started I didn't have many until August (After both HIM's). This year I am planning on doing 10-12 miles for my long runs in leading up to Racine. Would/should I need to go further then  13.1?

4. Nutrition? I don't like to blame this one as it seems to be the triathlete crutch ("I could have ran better but I messed up my nutrition"). It can play a role for sure, but by far the least likely cause. Yeah my nutrition was good for Racine last year, I think it was more of other factors, and that it was in the 90's on the run that led to a poor run. But I still do need to find a solid nutrition plan.

From this angle I would say that my bike and run fitness are the two main causes for my lack of a solid run. Feel free to look at my logs as well and get an idea of what I did last year. I think I have lots to improve on and know what I need to do in training this year to have more success this year as well.

The swim? have you done a 500 yard or 1,000 yard (or meter) Time trial?

As mentioned in my above post I have done TT's in the pool and right now I know I can swim 7:08 with a hard effort for 500 yards. I use this as my barometer but mostly go off feel in the swim, If I feel good I will push a little, no so good and I will hold back.

Bike? RPE, HR, Power, Pace?

I do not have a powermeter and do not have the means to get one right now. But I do enjoy the purity of going off RPE and I am trying the best that I can to match RPE with HR. I use HR in training but only as a "Rule of thumb" and never solely go by what it says. In racing I try moreso to have a target HR and use RPE as well.

For running I will be using a garmin this year and HR as well and I will see where that takes me. Last year in the fall I used my Garmin and clocked in not only PR's in a 10K and HM but also what I thought were two of my most well paced and ran races.

Why do you not use the PM for training and rely on HR, but you use the PM for racing?  And I'm assuming the 20min intervals are not at a very high exertion considering this are at your HIM pace.  Just trying to understand since I don't believe I've seen anyone using this approach before.

You are doing an awesome job with your swimming--getting more swims, swimming longer, harder, etc.  I think you would benefit by taking the same kind of approach to your running.  It's not the long runs that I'd focus on (though you should do more of those, as well), but just frequency and weekly mileage.  If you can, try to gradually edge that 15-20mpw towards 30mpw.  That should have you running 8-10mi long runs on a consistent basis and pushing out to 12-15 for a training block or two will not be a big deal.  Right now, any run in the 10mi area is going to be pretty stressful on you--let alone 13.1 after 1.2/56.

I can pretty much guarantee that if you do nothing else different but that (no speed work or even tempo running), you will get faster in races.  Especially as you look beyond this season.

She's using it only to provide info for her coach who is apparently 'reverse engineering' power zones from her training HRs.  Her coach appears to be assuming that HR efforts in training will be a good guage of stress, on average.  But that power will be a better measure on any single day (eg, HR could fluctuate simply due to 'race' excitement).  Unconventional, for sure.  She'll have to see how it works out.