Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) (Page 6)

Thanks, Jim! Here's my bio:

NAME: Anthony

FAMILY: 55 years old and married 26 years with 3 kids. Son 25, daughter 24, and son 17. The 2 oldest are out on their own and doing well.

STORY: Lost 40 pounds about 10 years ago so I started running in some local 5 and 10K's. In 2006 I found out there were sprint distance triathlons and not just Ironman so I thought I would give it a try. Luckily I found BT, did my first tri that Summer and have done 4 or 5 tris and a couple of dus each season since then. I do one HIM each year, but I probably won't ever move up to IM. I'm kinda slow but I have lots of fun.

2013: Was still coming back from a January 2012 injury when I slipped while warming up for a 5K and something sort of popped in my hip. HM, American Zofingen Short Course Du (1st in Men 55-59. OK, there were only 2 of us in the AG, but I got a nice beer mug) 3 sprints, an oly and Toughman (NY) HIM.

2013: Definitely a March HM and American Zofingen Du Short Course in May. 1 or 2 olys, 1 or 2 sprints, and a September HIM. Either Rev 3 Poconos, or HITS Hunter Mountain for the HIM, but I haven't decided which one I will do for sure yet.

CURRENT TRAINING: Currently focused on running in preperation for my March HM.  Luckily, I really love running in the Winter, so my running has been good. Unfortunately, I'm not a fan of cycling when it gets below 40 degrees, I don't like the trainer, and I have trouble motivating myself to get to the Y and swim, so my riding and swimming falls off in the Winter. I plan to do better this year.

WHAT WILL MAKE ME A GOOD MENTEE: I generally prefer to defer to the experts when it comes to training advice, but I feel I have some experience that could be helpful. My favorite part of being in a group is checking out everybody's training log and giving some "inspires".

Welcome Jim!

Hi temp is supposed to be minus 17 in my neck of the woods today....public schools are closed which means my pool is also closed.

Let me know if you sign up - my practice immediately follows you guys at UIC.

OK, as I mentioned there are several exciting new venues available in North America that I haven't been to so you have to take my input below with a grain of salt. As Scott mentioned, Tahoe is one of the exciting new venues. I'm sure it is tops as far as scenery goes but I haven't heard feedback on spectator support, etc if that is important to you. Anyway, here are the venues I've raced and some thoughts on each:

IM Mont-Tremblant (Quebec) - I simply cannot say enough nice things about this venue...I love it. It has been in existence only 2 years but you would think that the organizers have been putting this race on for a decade...they do a tremendous job. The venue is based at Mont-Tremblant ski village and you basically feel like the village belongs to the racers for the weekend. It has a very European feel to it due to the French influence. The swim course is on a lake that is simply gorgeous with a great view of the ski area. It also has a very nice beach for family activities. When you exit the swim you have a 300 meter run to the T1 tent. The 2 loop bike course has 2 different sections to it with vary different feels to each. Much of the course is on a major highway but they close down the northbound section of the highway so it is very safe. The surrounding scenery is very nice with mountains on each side in the distance. This section is not very difficult and it has a couple of long gradual climbs as well descents. Before returning to Mont-Tremblant you do a short out and back thru the town of Saint-Jovite. Before heading into the village for bike special needs on the first lap you do another long out and back towards Lac Superior that is heavily forested and has several very steep climbs. You simply have to spin up these climbs and not attack them or you'll pay for it on the run.  As you leave T2 for the 2 loop run course you head out along the lake towards the village of Mont-Tremblant.  There are a couple of climbs on this stretch that you will want to watch your pace on.  After you run through the village you will enter the long out and back on Le P' Train du Nord (Linear Park) which is an abandoned railroad bed.  Much of this section is heavily forested and provides a good amount of shade.  Not many spectators on this stretch which I like because you can concentrate on the task at hand.  You run thru the ski village on the first lap which is a nice morale boost.  Finally, you finish right in the village as well and the path leading to the finish line has tons of spectators on each side cheering you on...the best IM finish area I've experienced so far.  I raced here both years since it started and will be doing the 70.3 and full IM distance this summer.

IM Wisconsin (Madison, WI) - I've raced there 5 times and have trained on the course several times as well since its only a 4 hour drive from where I live. I put together a BT mini training camp at the venue and BT posted a video of it here....I just noticed that it has been viewed over 11,600 times!!!! Of all the Ironman venues I've been to I would have to say that the crowd support/atmosphere in Madison and surrounding areas is tops and it is easy for your family to see you several times on the run loop. Crowd support may or may not be important to you. The swim course is on a lake and spectator viewing is unbelievable from Monona Terrace which overlooks the lake. The bike course is a 16 mile ride out to "the loop" which you do twice and return to Madison. The course has a lot of turns on it which to me frankly gets a little irritating. It has tons of rollers which forces you to constantly be paying attention to gearing and making sure you don't drop a chain during the transition from a downhill to an uphill There are several tough hills on the loop but they are not very long...they will bite you on the second time around if you hit them too hard. The scenery cannot compete with mountainous venues as the bike course goes through mostly farmland surrounding Madison but it is not a solid cornfield either. The run course loops thru Madison twice and has tons of spectators. You actually get to run around the football field inside Camp Randall where the U of WI team plays.

IM Canada - Penticton - DISCLAIMER....there is no longer a WTC race in Penticton as IM Canada has moved to Whistler, BC. However, there is a new Challenge series ironman distance race there if you aren't tied to an Ironman brand race. This used to be my favorite venue prior to seeing Mont Tremblant, as the area is beautiful. The bike course is truly epic and you are actually climbing mountains...not hills. I was sad to see WTC move to Whistler but now Whistler is one of the venues I'd like to race.

IM Couer D'Alene   Its been quite a while since I raced CDA.  The surrounding area is very nice with mountains surrounding the area.  Lake conditions can be very cold since its in June.  The bike is not very difficult but I have heard that is has changed since I was there.  The run has a climb (or used to) on the farthest out point but not too terrible.  I would rate crowd support as fair and pretty much limited to the town itself.  Having this race in June makes it harder for northern climate racers to prepare for.  This is a nice venue but I can't say it really "grabbed me" very much.  Not sure why.

IM Arizona (Tempe, AZ) I raced here this past November and had a nice result but I can't say I liked this venue very much at all - I'm not a desert person.  I had a hotel just a couple blocks from transition which was nice, but it seemed like you were surrounded by major highways and there where jets flying overhead all day long - it wasn't very relaxing.  The swim is in Tempe Town Lake which is basically a wide canal.  You can only do a practice swim during a specified couple of hours on Saturday since the lake is closed otherwise.  The 3 loop bike course is pretty much flat but there is a gradual climb to the turnaround point out in the desert...I guess if you like desert its nice scenery but....meh.  There is talk of making this a 2 loop bike course next year.  The run course is along both sides of Tempe Town Lake and very boring and very sunny....there is NO SHADE.  Luckily they switched the race timing from April to November so the temps weren't too bad.  There is pretty good crowd support in town and along some sections of the run course.  Not much on the bike except for the turnaround in town.  I would say the "vibe" of the venue is OK as far as IM races go but as I said I did not find it very relaxing - the polar opposite of Mont-Tremblant.  Regardless, this race sells out in minutes each year probably because its a fairly "easy" course and the timing seems to work for many.

Those are the venues I've raced and there are lots more I want to do.  Lake Placid, Whistler, and Tahoe are on my short list of ones I want to do.  Oh.....there is another one on some island in the Pacific that I want to do as well........ :-)

Welcome Steve!!

This cold weather really affected my training yesterday!  Schools, and therefore my pool was closed so the scheduled swim was out.  Our high was supposed to be around minus 12 so I gave up on trying to x-c ski and instead was going to do a short run on the office dreadmill at lunch and then do a bike workout on the computrainer at night.  I got the run in OK, but on the way home I got a flat tire.  Normally that would not be a big deal but I wasn't looking forward to changing the tire in those temps.  Unfortunately, the spare tire holder underneath the car had corroded and wouldn't budge.  Called AAA and was on hold for over 40 minutes so I gave up and called a local tow company to haul my vehicle to the tire store to leave it overnight.  Luckily the tow company agreed to drive me home...but for a very steep price.  I didn't get home until 9 PM and was in no mood to jump on the bike for an hour.  Morale of the story is....life gets in the way of training.  So, if you can arrange any workouts earlier in the day to ensure they get done it will guard against the unexpected popping up.

Hmmmm...that's an interesting question.  I think for me the run course was harder psychologically because it is one big out and back so you know you have to "pay for" the same real estate twice.  Plus, there was a little out and back near the finish that ran along the lakeshore so it was quite the tease to know where the finish line was but you had to do another couple miles (forget the distance) before finishing.  As far as the difficulty of the run course I didn't think it was too bad.  There are some hills that you have to deal with but nothing outrageous.

As I mentioned in my IM course overview, I think the Penticton bike course is truly epic.  Heading out towards the mountains you know what is looming ahead of you.  Then you start the climbs into the mountain passes and it is just a matter of being patient and spinning up. Those are not just your run of the mill ironman course hill.   The descents on the return back to Penticton are just as epic.  The first year I did the race it was raining and cold.  I hadn't dressed for that kind of weather and my whole body was shivering on the descent to the point where I feared losing control of my steering.  Some of those wet curves were outright dangerous and I'm not kidding when I say I feared for my life for a split second a couple times.  It took me several miles on the run for my feet to warm up to where I could feel them again. 

I think the run and bike courses are so different (other than the obvious length difference) that its hard to compare them.  Not sure if that was what you are looking for?

I'm developing a response to the brick question but I had to search for an article I found several years ago, so I will get back to you ASAP

here's an aerial view of the Mont-Tremblant venue that I think is pretty cool

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and the finish line area....

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Welcome Carl...congrats on your Ironman finish.  My condolences for catching the bug :-)

The topic of brick runs is often a controversial one in discussion forums, and has actually resulted in a thread here on BT being pulled by the moderators because the arguments got so heated.   Before I go into answering the question I will say that it’s my belief that there is no right answer. It depends on the athlete, their background, goals, ability to recover and absorb training, etc. Frankly, if I hear anyone say that brick runs have absolutely zero place in triathlon training I usually immediately discount their credibility. So much is unknown.

To answer the question posed, I would first say that you don’t really need to “test your fitness” on a weekly basis. Sure, we are constantly assessing our general fitness in our mind (almost daily), but since physiological adaptations to training stresses takes weeks to become evident it usually is best to objectively assess fitness (via field testing) about every 6 weeks or so.  The second part of your question is whether or not you are overdoing it with a weekly brick of Olympic distance. Early in the year when you are in a more general phase of training you might not need to do a weekly brick as you describe. You are probably better off addressing your weaknesses. As your goal race approaches and you enter the specific phase of training then a weekly brick may be more appropriate.

I definitely think brick runs have a place in Ironman training and tri training in general. I think it is simply silly to say they have no benefit whatsoever - and many people say that. Triathlon is one sport...a swim followed by a bike followed by a run. I get very irritated when a "know it all" coach or athlete says that the only way to become a better runner is to do high quality runs on rested legs. I would agree. However, I do not advocate giving up high quality runs in order to do brick runs. I believe you improve your general running fitness thru high quality run workouts. But I also believe you can become a better triathlete through occasional brick runs that are more than just a 1-2 mile transition run. One of my training buddies that has qualified for Kona twice will do some 10 mile brick runs after a 50-70 mile ride. I'm not going to argue with his success. Some might say he was a good athlete that happened to qualify despite wasting his time on such long brick runs. I disagree. Running on tired legs can make you a better triathlete - AS LONG AS YOU RECOVER PROPERLY AND HAVE THE EXPERIENCE TO PULL THIS TYPE OF TRAINING OFF. I don't advocate doing long brick runs very often either. If someone doesn't have the necessary years of training in their legs they will spend too much time recovering which will decrease the amount of quality training the rest of the week.

For beginners, the occasional short run (1-3 miles) after a bike workout are a good way to experience the transition from the bike to run during training so you know what to expect going into your first races. Also, if you are in a low volume training program and you are strapped for time then a short run after a bike is a way to make efficient use of your time. Bottom line is...there is no RIGHT answer. It all depends on the individual athlete and whether they can handle it. If they are beginners I would not advocate many (any?) long brick runs. They are better off doing their brick runs as part of their B and C races preparing for their A race.

Practicing your nutrition plan for longer races is an important reason for doing longer brick runs. Ask yourself, are you going to restrict testing of your Ironman nutrition plan to just your long ride? Really? How do you know if your plan will work if you don’t continue into a longer brick run after your bike? Do you think simply doing a short transition run after your bike is enough to find out if your nutrition plan will successfully carry you into your run? The alternative is to wait until your actual Ironman race to try out your nutrition plan. If it doesn’t work you likely will have to wait a year to try out another plan.

For those that want to get a little more geeky about this….here is an abstract of a study that examined the effect of biking on muscle activation during the run. Essentially what they did is compared muscle activation of a "bike to run" to a "run to run" and found a significant difference in muscle activation in the 2 study groups. Admittedly, the test distances in the study are not long. But, if there's a difference in how your body functions then you should be able to train it to be able to be more efficient in a run off the bike.   What I get out of the abstract of the paper is that your running muscles are acting differently after a bike session than they are compared to a standalone run session. To me this makes perfect sense. If you do a hard effort on the bike during an Olympic, HIM or IM your body has undergone a stress, and there is no way in the world you are going to convince me that your body's posture and running gait off the bike are going to be exactly the same as if you are starting a standalone run (however slight the difference). So, due to micro differences in your posture/gait you are going to be recruiting muscles in a slightly different way coming off the bike compared to a standalone run. In addition, because bike muscles have been previously fatigued from the bike (in a way that standalone run training can't mimic), and I'm sure at least some (many?) of those bike muscles are used in run mechanics, they will not contribute to your running mechanics the exact same way they did compared to a standalone run. Your body now has to find a way to run fast using your leg muscles that have been fatigued in a way that a standalone run can never duplicate. To me, this presents an opportunity for training. There is just no way you’ll convince me that a brick run does not impart a different training effect than a pure standalone run. This is training for triathlon running, not standalone running, and if specificity is supposed to be a good thing, then training by running off the bike is a lot more specific way to train than a standalone run. Triathlon is one sport, not three. Sorry for the long ramble……