Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread (Page 67)

Oh not at all.  I was just adding some advice on how to avoid a situation like that.

Welcome, it's a great group, the vets have especially been helpful and insightful for us first timers.

I asked the same question and will save you time looking through the posts.  The answer and a good answer at that was:

Ride your bike, ride some more, ride on hills alot, ride your bike some more, then, ride your bike.

Good luck with your training!

Hey everyone.  I hope your weekend was filled with tons of training.  I'm still healthy and in one piece, but I have a swimming problem and need help. 

I have an Olympic event this weekend and I'm struggling with my new full wetsuit.  All my swims to date have been in a sleeveless (several Sprints, Olympics, and a HIM).  I jumped in the lake and did about 800 meters just to test out my new full suit and it feels too restrictive.  I think the fit is ok as it is just the sleeved version of my sleeveless Xterra X2 Pro (I'm a Medium Long at 6'2 and 175) and I may be fighting some mental blocks on the sleeves.  I do get a bit mentally quirky in open water.

Cold water does not really bother me.  I think our lake was about 63 degrees per the fishing reports and I don't find that cold at all.

Any thoughts/ideas?  I know someone that did CdA in a sleeveless last year.  Like me, he gets a bit hot in wetsuits. 

Help!!!!! 

Since we're on nutrition, here is everyone's PSA for the week:

Gels DO have a shelf life, but it's really hard to tell what they are. Consuming one that has likely been around for too long is BAD.  Thankfully, the effects kicked in AFTER my long run yesterday. Had my long run been any longer it would've been UGLY (when otherwise, I was quite pleased with the speed of a fairly easy/moderate effort long run).  So, if you've had a stockpile for a bit, and you think they're okay...they may not be so okay.  I got an amazing bulk deal, but it was oh, like 3 years back. I've moved, so they've moved, and yeah, some of these shouldn't be eaten anymore!  So learn from me, and ask yourself "how old ARE these gels??"

Okay, back to our regularly scheduled training....

Zipp recommends a 21mm tire on the 808 (click on "specifications" here) for best aerodynamic mating between the tire/rim.  I personally would go with a 21 up front and a 23 in back (where aerodynamics do not matter as much and where durability matters more).

I echo what spudone said about injstalling latex tubes and using butyl as a spare.  Stem length doesn't matter since you'll need valve extenders on teh 808 anyway.  Putting a little talc on the tire before installing it will help avoid pinching the tube between the tire/rim.

While their claims of 8% performance gains are dubius, I think your characterization of PB Perfrom as "fructose based" is not fair - it's sugar composition is 67% glucose and 33% fructose.  According to powerbar:

Ironman Perform sports drink is formulated with PowerBar® C2MAX* dual source energy blend, a 2:1 glucose to fructose blend found to deliver 20–50% more energy to muscles than glucose alone and improve endurance performance by 8%.* Ironman Perform sports drink contains 190mg sodium per serving — a key electrolyte lost in sweat that is associated with muscle cramping in some athletes.

*actually a combo of Maltodextrin, Fructose, Dextrose

* note that the disaccharide sucrose (cane/beet sugar) is broken down into glucose and [the apparently evil] fructose during digestion.  Fructose is a monosaccharide that can be immediately absorbed in digestion.

The former IM course drink, Gatorade endurance (now called gatorade pro), does not give their breakdown of sugars used, but does list that it contains sucrose and dextrose.

- PB Perform nutrtional profile: http://www.personalbestnutrition.com/cgi-bin/pbn/537.html
- Gatorade Endurance nutritional profile: http://www.personalbestnutrition.com/cgi-bin/pbn/997.html

(Note also that both of those are for the powdered form sold in cannisters.  I believe it is not unheard of in the sports drink industry for the ready-made bottles to have different sugar sources than the powders).

As we are citing anecdotal evidence, I'll simply state that PB perform tastes fine to me (and is preferred by many even on this thread), and that it is not "much harder on my stomach" at all.  If you were referring to the literature citing fructose malabsorbtion (a good lay-summary of the scientific literature is found here imho), I'll grant you that IN EXCESSIVE AMOUNTS people can experience digestive stress from fructose.

Given that 2/3 of PB Perfrom's sugars are not from fructose, and given the long history of people having digestive distress during the last 1/4 of their ironman races (regardless of what sports drink was involved), I'm still pretty much ambivalent about what sports drink is on the course, as long as it provides a comparable ratio of carbs, electrolytes, and water.  I still contend that the vast majority of digestive problems on the IM course is not from WHAT you ate/drink, but how much of it... and inappropriate pacing.

Not an accusation, just a question: do you have any financial stake (sponsorship, discount, etc) as a coach in GU or CarboPro?  I have no problem if you do, just think it warrants full disclosure.  I'm sure I could be quite happy with those products too, if they were offered on course.  But until I get compelling evidence that they are nutritionally superior to what IS offered on the course (and I'll go on record as being compelled only by Infinit because you can customize the blend to your preferences, but not because they use some magic combo of the right sugars), I'm advocating for living off the course if possible.

We could all waste a lot of training time reading what academia and government has said about various types of sugars and how the body reacts to them.  Unfortunately, I have done so in the past.  For what it's worth, I think the couple paragraphs on page 93 of Nutrtion for Sport and Exercise (available courtesy of google) summarize the findings fairly, and also give me confidence that PB Perform is not to blame if you crap your pants on the IM run.

Not only may it not be to blame for your digestive troubles, I believe there is some academic evidence to suggest that a glucose+fructose drink is superior to a glucose-only drink when cycling.  While I can't find the paper in a link that can be viewed on the regular old interwebs, it is summarized (with some take-aways) here:

So in case you hadn't figured out by now, I think it is efficient to live off the course, and I think that what is offered on the course may in fact be the superior product over another drink that might use bogus marketing and fear mongering in it's claims to not contain fructose.

As always, YMMV and it's best to experiment with nutrition in training.

Even though injury is keeping me out of this year's CdA and I haven't done the ironman distance before, I have done many very long endurance events and I have to chime in on this discussion about Perform and living off the course.  Passion is good, but I think folks are getting way too divided on this. It's sounding an awful like a Coke vs. Pepsi argument.

The reality is everybody is different in what their bodies can handle. Yes, it absolutely creates a problem if people consume the wrong amounts of the right stuff.  However, the "right" stuff is different from person to person.  For instance, I have many endurance-minded friends who love to have a PB&J either just before or during an event.  If I go anywhere near peanut butter during an event, I'm be headed straight for the portable toilet very soon.  We're all different in how our bodies process stuff.  While scientifically it might not make a ton of difference if a drink is composed of fructose or sucrose, it's absolutely true that some people's systems handle one better than the other. Some people can consume anything and be just fine, others have a very fine line they have to walk.

Look, I just think people need to stick with the basics.  Find out what's on the course of any endurance event.  Practice with it.  Imitate race day in training both with timing of when you consume and the amount.  If what's on the course works for you, congratulations, you've won a great bonus.  If it doesn't, you'll have to figure out how to bring your own or supplement as best you can.  That means more things for you to think about on race day, but it is what it is. 

And taste is completely subjective so there is no use at all in debating that.  You like it/can tolerate it or you don't.  Nobody is wrong when it comes to taste.  Ok, I'll get off my stump now.

Cheers,
Brad 

Brad,

I think we all know coke is better than Pepsi!!!!

PS - at my last IM, they served generic cola (no wonder I had digestive trouble)

Ok, but how many times have you heard someone ask the bartender for a “Jack and Pepsi”? I rest my case Coke wins. 

At least it was not diet generic cola.  Yes, I've been in a marathon that had flat diet cola at mile 20.  I'm not sure if it was caffeine free or not, but I would not be suprised.  

The only real issue I have with the "living off the course" plan is that you are putting a big part of your race in the hands of someone else.  What they say you are going to get may not turn out to be what you actually get.

On a serious note all I know is nutrition takes time to figure out through trial and error.  Everyone has an opinion on it and you have to figure out which opinion/technique works for you. 

Happy Nutritioning.

This site needs a "like" button!

Holy cow!! I would be in SO much trouble with that one.  On the other hand, I did used to drink Mt. Dew before high jumping at track meets in high school.  Hmm ...

Indeed! 

I know this is not CDa related but I keep a shot of redbull sugarfree in my t2 hat for short course and shoot it asap on the run and thats always a nice bit of caffeine.

On a long course note, one of my coaches told me to switch to cola later in the run but never switch back to the other once you were on the cola. That hint stuck with me and I think that helped the end game last year.

As regards the above, I know you've got two powerhouse knowledgeable folks discussing the various drinks, but I see no reason why you need to live off the course other than for water. I keep my water in my tri bottle (an inviscid) and two 3 hour bottles of concentrated gatorade endurance/carbo pro (with endurolytes as needed) on the rear of my seat drinking a third of it each hour. Whatever you are comfortable should work fine and you dont need to worry about that debate.

I didn't just go google up "various and sundry papers" to back up my points.  I googled summaries of academic sources, and posted nutritional facts based on manufacturer claims.  I even referenced studies to back up your point about the inefficiency of fructose absorption since there are less of the enzymes to absorb it.  If I'm not mistaken, however... both sucrose and fructose are absorbed in the small intestine, not the stomach.

The point of my careful sourcing was not really to back up my points, but to refute your unsourced claims (which were attacking my original points) which were false:

• PB Perform is a fructose-based product (false)... it has twice as much glucose as fructose and a combination of mostly glucose with some fructose has been independently confirmed in academia to increase carbohydrate uptake.
• Fructose is harder on the stomach (false)... it passes through the stomach undigested.  This means if you throw up, it wasn't because of the type of sugar you consumed... it was because the volume or pace or both were too high.
• All sugars are metabolized basically the same (false)... there are separate enzymes for certain sugars, and if your drink doesn't contain the matching sugars those enzymes are unused while the others enzymes are at work (resulting in less than optimal carbohydrate uptake).

I clarified that excessive fructose can cause digestive trouble.  It does so by passing through the intestine and entering the colon undigested, where it ferments and causes gas.  If you end up in the porti-potty (vs. puking), you could consider the POSSIBLE role fructose played in that (however I don't believe there is credible evidence that the amount of fructose in PB perform is high enough to do that).

Noted and appreciated on the sponsorship info.

Saying my research is invalid without citing a reason and just saying "you can find anything on the internet" isn't a fair response, since you initially challenged my views with nothing but personal experience.  "However you can believe what you want, I really don't care" is also false, or you wouldn't be responding.  Citing your son's fructose intolerance is also irrelevant to the debate, other than to show that you have motivation to have read about fructose intolerance (which I acknowledged can exist, but is a straw man to the points I made about the benefits of limited fructose in products like PB perform). 

If you would like to find those studies to show your side, I'd be glad to read them.  Until then, I contend that I didn't google studies to back up my point, but rather hold to my point based on my review of the studies.  Just because I don't have a family member with stomach problems, doesn't mean today was the first time I read about sports nutrition.

All that said, I'm glad we agree on the WHAT (live off the course if possible, and experiment with nutrtion to know what works for you, and all sugars eventually become glucose and then glycogen as the primary source of energy we need in aerobic exercise), even if we get there via a very differnt WHY.

Apologies if we're bordering on an debate that gets in the weeds that most of the participants in this thread are not interested in.  Maybe I'm biased, but I feel like my position (based on research and experience) was discredited with false info... and then when I backed it up with data, I was discredited as being biased and sloppy.  I'm far too stubborn to back down from that, and whether I like it or not... I do care.

And as I've said before, I think the debate is healthy if you (the reader) take the time to listen to both sides and make up your mind for yourself.  If it gets you thinking about the science of sports nutrition, that's a good thing for your IM.

Look what else I found on the interwebz (note number 2 on the ingredients list):

Top 10 things we have learned??

1. Josh and RocketMan disagree... and always will, on most everything... so we can move on...
2. If you can live off the course, do so...
3. If you cannot, you have more to deal with on a day you already have too much to deal with and that is your perogative.  I am very fortunate that I can pretty much eat anything so long as I have some solids (a short story... A few weeks back I was traveling for business and HAD to go out with the team... I ate a Steak Burrito the size of my head with Cheese Queso sauce over it, too many chips and about 4 Diet Cokes...  Got back to the hotel, let it settle for an hour and then put down 10 miles @ 8:15 pace on the treadmill in a little hotel gym where the mirrors steamed up it got so hot, and I felt great!  This makes me VERY lucky from a nitrition standpoint).
4. Coke IS Better than Pepsi (that is probably the only thing everybody agrees with) but both are better than anything sold at Wal-Mart (also pretty undisputed...).
5. Jim Beam is better than Jack Daniels...  This was not discussed, but I have done years of testing and my research is conclusive!
6. Some have to drink their calories, some have to have some solid food (me), some like it hot, some like it cooler (me), some hate the taste of Ironman Perform some like it (me)...
7. Net net on Triathlon, in Sprints and Oly's the 4th discipline is transition, in 1/2 and full Ironman it is Nutrition.
8. I will add a new learning about nutrition, something told to me by a very wise person... Treat yourself.  You get 2 special needs bags, 1 for the run and 1 for the bike.  Put something special in there, something you LOVE that is very bad for you but makes you happy... something to look forward to on Mile 56ish of the bike or mile 14ish of the run... (not sure exactly where the special needs stations are at IMCdA, should probably look). For me it is Twix, I love Twix and it made me smile at IMLP, if only for a moment before reality came back.
9. We are 3 months away from Race day, if you were not already serious, it is time!
10. We are all of different levels and experiences, we all have different motivations and goals, but if you remember nothing else remember this... On June 26th we will be entering a club, a fraternity of sorts, some are already in it, some will join.  If the day goes well, or not as planned, we get 17 hours to go 140.6 miles... and if we are lucky enough to do it, we will go accross the line and hear the words we all look so forward to "XXXX YOU ARE AN IRONMAN!!!!"  If you do it in 9 hours or 17 hours, you are still a special person and have still done something 99.9% of the population will never do, 99% of the population would never consider and 98% of the population feel is CRAZY!!! 

Have fun, keep smiling, enjoy being considered crazy!

Gary