Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread (Page 67)
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Rocket Man - 2011-03-20 9:46 PM TriRSquared - 2011-03-20 8:41 PM spudone - 2011-03-20 8:08 PM the caveat to that is that if you miss an aid station due to traffic or miss a handoff you are screwed I'd say it's more of an inconvenience than being screwed. The bike stations are 10 miles apart so figure ~30 minutes if you miss one. I know I don't use every aid station that's available to me. Definitely slow down for the aid stations though, especially if you see kids handling the bottles. Sometimes they don't quite let go at the right time and you need to be ready to let your arm swing backwards during the handoff. Or, simply have an extra bottle in case you do miss one. The next station grab two to restock and you're back to living off the course. Please don't interpret what I say as being anti living off the course. I would advise an athlete to do that every day and twice on Sunday if they are able. How much easier could it be? What you do have to take into account is a situation like the one that developed at Louisville last year where there was one aid station that was non existant, and the others had run out of fluids due to the high heat. Oh not at all. I was just adding some advice on how to avoid a situation like that. |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() jennykyria - 2011-03-19 10:00 PM Hi Everyone! CDA is my first IM and I'm not so sure what I'm doing and was told to keep up with this board and I'll learn a bunch of stuff. I'm so nervous for the bike- any tips for successful training? Anyone in SE Michigan looking for a biking buddy?? I'd love the company!! T-minus 13 weeks..... Welcome, it's a great group, the vets have especially been helpful and insightful for us first timers. I asked the same question and will save you time looking through the posts. The answer and a good answer at that was: Ride your bike, ride some more, ride on hills alot, ride your bike some more, then, ride your bike. Good luck with your training! Edited by mdfahy 2011-03-21 8:36 AM |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Hey everyone. I hope your weekend was filled with tons of training. I'm still healthy and in one piece, but I have a swimming problem and need help. I have an Olympic event this weekend and I'm struggling with my new full wetsuit. All my swims to date have been in a sleeveless (several Sprints, Olympics, and a HIM). I jumped in the lake and did about 800 meters just to test out my new full suit and it feels too restrictive. I think the fit is ok as it is just the sleeved version of my sleeveless Xterra X2 Pro (I'm a Medium Long at 6'2 and 175) and I may be fighting some mental blocks on the sleeves. I do get a bit mentally quirky in open water. Cold water does not really bother me. I think our lake was about 63 degrees per the fishing reports and I don't find that cold at all. Any thoughts/ideas? I know someone that did CdA in a sleeveless last year. Like me, he gets a bit hot in wetsuits. Help!!!!!
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Since we're on nutrition, here is everyone's PSA for the week: Gels DO have a shelf life, but it's really hard to tell what they are. Consuming one that has likely been around for too long is BAD. Thankfully, the effects kicked in AFTER my long run yesterday. Had my long run been any longer it would've been UGLY (when otherwise, I was quite pleased with the speed of a fairly easy/moderate effort long run). So, if you've had a stockpile for a bit, and you think they're okay...they may not be so okay. I got an amazing bulk deal, but it was oh, like 3 years back. I've moved, so they've moved, and yeah, some of these shouldn't be eaten anymore! So learn from me, and ask yourself "how old ARE these gels??" Okay, back to our regularly scheduled training.... |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() cam111 - 2011-03-19 5:16 PM JoshKaptur - 2011-03-07 8:41 AM Assume you are riding clincher... 1) Latex tubes are a must - it's free speed and there is no downside. I'd recommend you have a butyl as a spare though... latex can be harder to change without pinching, especially if you are in a rush and sweaty. 2) You need to think about both aerodynamics and rolling resistance. What rims are you using on race day? Most zipps do better with a wider (22-23mm) tire, whereas HED tri spoke would be best on a narrower (19-20mm) tire. I'll just tell you that I ride SRAM s80 (essentially zipp808 rims). I took as gospel what TomA and AFM (AFM did the crr testing @ biketechreview) on slowtwitch advise... they've literally done the research for us and know more about making bikes go faster via gear choices than I'll ever forget. They generally suggest an aero but low rr tire up front, and a more robust but still low rr tire in back. For me (because of my rims) that would either be: 1) bontrager r4 aero (front) and specialized mondo open tubular (rear) -- that last one is a clincher despite the name. 2) specialized mondo open tubular on both... loss of a little aero but increase in durability. The Mich Pro Race 3 or Continental GP4000S are good all around tires for training and racing if you are only going to have one tire (though I would go with Vittoria Open Corso Evo CX for those myself)... but they are NOT racing tires. I would NEVER use them on race day unless I was particularly concerned about flats due to crappy pavement on a large part of the course or something. I had a hard time interpreting some of the graphs and charts on this topic --- three quick questions:
Thanks! Cam (bike-fit process is going well...)
Zipp recommends a 21mm tire on the 808 (click on "specifications" here) for best aerodynamic mating between the tire/rim. I personally would go with a 21 up front and a 23 in back (where aerodynamics do not matter as much and where durability matters more).
I echo what spudone said about injstalling latex tubes and using butyl as a spare. Stem length doesn't matter since you'll need valve extenders on teh 808 anyway. Putting a little talc on the tire before installing it will help avoid pinching the tube between the tire/rim. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Rocket Man - 2011-03-20 6:49 PM And once again I am going to disagree with you Josh (seems to be a reoccuring theme right?) While their claims of 8% performance gains are dubius, I think your characterization of PB Perfrom as "fructose based" is not fair - it's sugar composition is 67% glucose and 33% fructose. According to powerbar: Ironman Perform sports drink is formulated with PowerBar® C2MAX* dual source energy blend, a 2:1 glucose to fructose blend found to deliver 20–50% more energy to muscles than glucose alone and improve endurance performance by 8%.* Ironman Perform sports drink contains 190mg sodium per serving — a key electrolyte lost in sweat that is associated with muscle cramping in some athletes. *actually a combo of Maltodextrin, Fructose, Dextrose * note that the disaccharide sucrose (cane/beet sugar) is broken down into glucose and [the apparently evil] fructose during digestion. Fructose is a monosaccharide that can be immediately absorbed in digestion. The former IM course drink, Gatorade endurance (now called gatorade pro), does not give their breakdown of sugars used, but does list that it contains sucrose and dextrose. - PB Perform nutrtional profile: http://www.personalbestnutrition.com/cgi-bin/pbn/537.html (Note also that both of those are for the powdered form sold in cannisters. I believe it is not unheard of in the sports drink industry for the ready-made bottles to have different sugar sources than the powders). As we are citing anecdotal evidence, I'll simply state that PB perform tastes fine to me (and is preferred by many even on this thread), and that it is not "much harder on my stomach" at all. If you were referring to the literature citing fructose malabsorbtion (a good lay-summary of the scientific literature is found here imho), I'll grant you that IN EXCESSIVE AMOUNTS people can experience digestive stress from fructose. Given that 2/3 of PB Perfrom's sugars are not from fructose, and given the long history of people having digestive distress during the last 1/4 of their ironman races (regardless of what sports drink was involved), I'm still pretty much ambivalent about what sports drink is on the course, as long as it provides a comparable ratio of carbs, electrolytes, and water. I still contend that the vast majority of digestive problems on the IM course is not from WHAT you ate/drink, but how much of it... and inappropriate pacing. Not an accusation, just a question: do you have any financial stake (sponsorship, discount, etc) as a coach in GU or CarboPro? I have no problem if you do, just think it warrants full disclosure. I'm sure I could be quite happy with those products too, if they were offered on course. But until I get compelling evidence that they are nutritionally superior to what IS offered on the course (and I'll go on record as being compelled only by Infinit because you can customize the blend to your preferences, but not because they use some magic combo of the right sugars), I'm advocating for living off the course if possible. We could all waste a lot of training time reading what academia and government has said about various types of sugars and how the body reacts to them. Unfortunately, I have done so in the past. For what it's worth, I think the couple paragraphs on page 93 of Nutrtion for Sport and Exercise (available courtesy of google) summarize the findings fairly, and also give me confidence that PB Perform is not to blame if you crap your pants on the IM run. Edited by JoshKaptur 2011-03-21 2:10 PM |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Not only may it not be to blame for your digestive troubles, I believe there is some academic evidence to suggest that a glucose+fructose drink is superior to a glucose-only drink when cycling. While I can't find the paper in a link that can be viewed on the regular old interwebs, it is summarized (with some take-aways) here: However, a sports drink is more effective when fructose is added to a sports drink as a second carbohydrate. This was shown in a recent study conducted by Roy Jentjens from the University of Birmingham. Cyclists were given either a glucose solution or a combined glucose-fructose solution with the same total calories during a ride to exhaustion. The cyclists receiving the combined sugars burned 55 total more carbohydrate than those that received the glucose solution. The reason fructose boosts total carbohydrate oxidation during exercise when included as a second carbohydrate is that, as mentioned above, it is processed by the body through different channels than other sugars. Thus, when, say, your body’s sucrose absorption channel is saturated by the sucrose contained in the sports drink you’re using, your fructose absorption channel remains available. Adding fructose to your sports drink allows you to exploit this additional carbohydrate absorption capacity and thereby absorb and use more total carbohydrate. Thus, it is actually foolish to avoid sports drinks containing fructose or high fructose corn syrup. As long as one or two other high-glycemic carbohydrates (glucose, sucrose, maltodextrin, etc.) are listed ahead of fructose or high fructose corn syrup on the product label, a sports drink that contains some form of fructose is likely to perform better than one that does not. So in case you hadn't figured out by now, I think it is efficient to live off the course, and I think that what is offered on the course may in fact be the superior product over another drink that might use bogus marketing and fear mongering in it's claims to not contain fructose. As always, YMMV and it's best to experiment with nutrition in training. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Even though injury is keeping me out of this year's CdA and I haven't done the ironman distance before, I have done many very long endurance events and I have to chime in on this discussion about Perform and living off the course. Passion is good, but I think folks are getting way too divided on this. It's sounding an awful like a Coke vs. Pepsi argument. The reality is everybody is different in what their bodies can handle. Yes, it absolutely creates a problem if people consume the wrong amounts of the right stuff. However, the "right" stuff is different from person to person. For instance, I have many endurance-minded friends who love to have a PB&J either just before or during an event. If I go anywhere near peanut butter during an event, I'm be headed straight for the portable toilet very soon. We're all different in how our bodies process stuff. While scientifically it might not make a ton of difference if a drink is composed of fructose or sucrose, it's absolutely true that some people's systems handle one better than the other. Some people can consume anything and be just fine, others have a very fine line they have to walk. Look, I just think people need to stick with the basics. Find out what's on the course of any endurance event. Practice with it. Imitate race day in training both with timing of when you consume and the amount. If what's on the course works for you, congratulations, you've won a great bonus. If it doesn't, you'll have to figure out how to bring your own or supplement as best you can. That means more things for you to think about on race day, but it is what it is. And taste is completely subjective so there is no use at all in debating that. You like it/can tolerate it or you don't. Nobody is wrong when it comes to taste. Ok, I'll get off my stump now. Cheers, Edited by citaltfort 2011-03-21 2:34 PM |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Brad, I think we all know coke is better than Pepsi!!!!
PS - at my last IM, they served generic cola (no wonder I had digestive trouble) |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() citaltfort - 2011-03-21 1:32 PM Even though injury is keeping me out of this year's CdA and I haven't done the ironman distance before, I have done many very long endurance events and I have to chime in on this discussion about Perform and living off the course. Passion is good, but I think folks are getting way too divided on this. It's sounding an awful like a Coke vs. Pepsi argument. Cheers, Ok, but how many times have you heard someone ask the bartender for a “Jack and Pepsi”? I rest my case Coke wins. Edited by tribean 2011-03-21 3:01 PM |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() JoshKaptur - 2011-03-21 1:44 PM Brad, I think we all know coke is better than Pepsi!!!!
PS - at my last IM, they served generic cola (no wonder I had digestive trouble) At least it was not diet generic cola. Yes, I've been in a marathon that had flat diet cola at mile 20. I'm not sure if it was caffeine free or not, but I would not be suprised. The only real issue I have with the "living off the course" plan is that you are putting a big part of your race in the hands of someone else. What they say you are going to get may not turn out to be what you actually get. |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() On a serious note all I know is nutrition takes time to figure out through trial and error. Everyone has an opinion on it and you have to figure out which opinion/technique works for you. Happy Nutritioning. |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() tribean - 2011-03-21 2:51 PM citaltfort - 2011-03-21 1:32 PM Even though injury is keeping me out of this year's CdA and I haven't done the ironman distance before, I have done many very long endurance events and I have to chime in on this discussion about Perform and living off the course. Passion is good, but I think folks are getting way too divided on this. It's sounding an awful like a Coke vs. Pepsi argument. Cheers, Ok, but how many times have you heard someone ask the bartender for a “Jack and Pepsi”? I rest my case Coke wins. This site needs a "like" button! |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Sorry this may have been covered in the prior 83 pages at 20 responses per page but is anyone else doing the Intermediate Full Ironman - 20 Week - HR plan? Would like to very much keep in touch with you on how you feel, what your doing etc.... Sorry if already covered..... |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() T in Liberty Lake - 2011-03-21 12:54 PM JoshKaptur - 2011-03-21 1:44 PM Brad, I think we all know coke is better than Pepsi!!!!  PS - at my last IM, they served generic cola (no wonder I had digestive trouble) At least it was not diet generic cola. Yes, I've been in a marathon that had flat diet cola at mile 20.  I'm not sure if it was caffeine free or not, but I would not be suprised.  The only real issue I have with the "living off the course" plan is that you are putting a big part of your race in the hands of someone else. What they say you are going to get may not turn out to be what you actually get. Both years I did IM CDA (2007 and 20008) they had Sam's Club Cola and I was sooooooo disappointed. For 6 months of training I was looking forward to the Coke at mile 18 and when I got the Sam's Cola I just about threw up so it does make a difference. |
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Pro ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() JoshKaptur - 2011-03-21 2:49 PM Rocket Man - 2011-03-20 6:49 PM And once again I am going to disagree with you Josh (seems to be a reoccuring theme right?) While their claims of 8% performance gains are dubius, I think your characterization of PB Perfrom as "fructose based" is not fair - it's sugar composition is 67% glucose and 33% fructose. According to powerbar: Ironman Perform sports drink is formulated with PowerBar® C2MAX* dual source energy blend, a 2:1 glucose to fructose blend found to deliver 20–50% more energy to muscles than glucose alone and improve endurance performance by 8%.* Ironman Perform sports drink contains 190mg sodium per serving — a key electrolyte lost in sweat that is associated with muscle cramping in some athletes. *actually a combo of Maltodextrin, Fructose, Dextrose * note that the disaccharide sucrose (cane/beet sugar) is broken down into glucose and [the apparently evil] fructose during digestion. Fructose is a monosaccharide that can be immediately absorbed in digestion. The former IM course drink, Gatorade endurance (now called gatorade pro), does not give their breakdown of sugars used, but does list that it contains sucrose and dextrose. - PB Perform nutrtional profile: http://www.personalbestnutrition.com/cgi-bin/pbn/537.html (Note also that both of those are for the powdered form sold in cannisters. I believe it is not unheard of in the sports drink industry for the ready-made bottles to have different sugar sources than the powders). As we are citing anecdotal evidence, I'll simply state that PB perform tastes fine to me (and is preferred by many even on this thread), and that it is not "much harder on my stomach" at all. If you were referring to the literature citing fructose malabsorbtion (a good lay-summary of the scientific literature is found here imho), I'll grant you that IN EXCESSIVE AMOUNTS people can experience digestive stress from fructose. Given that 2/3 of PB Perfrom's sugars are not from fructose, and given the long history of people having digestive distress during the last 1/4 of their ironman races (regardless of what sports drink was involved), I'm still pretty much ambivalent about what sports drink is on the course, as long as it provides a comparable ratio of carbs, electrolytes, and water. I still contend that the vast majority of digestive problems on the IM course is not from WHAT you ate/drink, but how much of it... and inappropriate pacing. Not an accusation, just a question: do you have any financial stake (sponsorship, discount, etc) as a coach in GU or CarboPro? I have no problem if you do, just think it warrants full disclosure. I'm sure I could be quite happy with those products too, if they were offered on course. But until I get compelling evidence that they are nutritionally superior to what IS offered on the course (and I'll go on record as being compelled only by Infinit because you can customize the blend to your preferences, but not because they use some magic combo of the right sugars), I'm advocating for living off the course if possible. We could all waste a lot of training time reading what academia and government has said about various types of sugars and how the body reacts to them. Unfortunately, I have done so in the past. For what it's worth, I think the couple paragraphs on page 93 of Nutrtion for Sport and Exercise (available courtesy of google) summarize the findings fairly, and also give me confidence that PB Perform is not to blame if you crap your pants on the IM run. Nope none at all. However if they or any other nutritional company wanted to give me free product I would gladly use it. Now I appreciate the fact that you have gone to all the trouble of Googling various and sundry papers and articles to support what you are saying. If I had the time or the inclination to do the same I am sure I could find just as many sources saying the opposite. That is the beauty of the interwebs....if you look hard enough you can find sources to back up any claim. I base my opinion on fructose on a few different factors: My son has a fructose intolerance that took us years to finally diagnose. His pediatric GI and I have had many conversations about fructose, sucrose, glucose, and lactose. All are sugars and all are metabolized in the liver and eventually broken down into glucose (and by extension glycogen) for energy. Once we figured out what was causing my son's issues he said that it wasn't surprising that he was having digestive troubles since fructose is harder on the stomach than the other sugars (which he tolerates with no issues). Having lived this for the last 5 years and done extensive reading on the subject I feel like I have an informed opinion on the matter. Honestly you can believe what you want, I really don't care. Second, I do support living off the course if it is possible. Everyone tolerates nutritional products differently and even to the degree of tolerating one type in cooler weather and one type in warmer weather. If you like the Powerbar Perform and can tolerate it then you would be a fool not to live off the course. When planning and executing an nutritional plan the simpler you can make things the better. There was a guy that posted a nutritional plan half a page long in the IM forums a year or two ago, how in the world are you going to remember something like that much less execute it to perfection in the heat of battle? As far as the PB Perfom causing meltdowns at IMLOU last year, I certainly believe that it was a factor. The mantra of "nothing new on race day" is repeated over and over for a reason and if people were trying to choke down a drink that they had not trained with then it was like playing Russian Roulette with their GI system. Some options for those of you who don't like or use the products on the course: 1) Infinit-fully customizable and once you get it dialed in is virtually idiot proof. The only drawback that I have had with this product is that I get hungry for some type of solid/semi-solid food during the day and it generally doesn't mix well with other things. 2) Carbo-Pro-Carbo Pro is a tasteless powder that you can add to any existing sports drink or regular drink for that matter to boost the calorie content. I have used this on several occasions and I like the fact I can throw a couple of scoops of this into regular Gatorade and make a multi hour bottle. 3) GU-GU Brew is relatively new so the jury is still out on it, however the times I have used it in conjunction with Carbo Pro it has worked out well. Bottom line is that you have to find a product that works for YOU and stick with it. If you able to tolerate PB Perform then your day should be pretty easy. If not or if you choose to use another product make sure you are testing it under race conditions (at a HIM 6-8 weeks out from CDA) so you know how your body reacts to it on race day and under race conditions. Everyone is different and what works for me may or may not work for you. I had a pro that I used to coach that put Mountain Dew in his fuel belt for the run. Not something I would recommend but it worked for him. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Rocket Man - 2011-03-20 6:49 PM I had a pro that I used to coach that put Mountain Dew in his fuel belt for the run. Not something I would recommend but it worked for him.
Holy cow!! I would be in SO much trouble with that one. On the other hand, I did used to drink Mt. Dew before high jumping at track meets in high school. Hmm ... |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I think it's also easy to forget that there's also plain water available on the course. So you're not stuck with Powerbar Perform as your only option, provided that you have a plan to manage your caloric intake. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() mdfahy - 2011-03-21 1:17 PM tribean - 2011-03-21 2:51 PM citaltfort - 2011-03-21 1:32 PM Even though injury is keeping me out of this year's CdA and I haven't done the ironman distance before, I have done many very long endurance events and I have to chime in on this discussion about Perform and living off the course. Passion is good, but I think folks are getting way too divided on this. It's sounding an awful like a Coke vs. Pepsi argument. Cheers, Ok, but how many times have you heard someone ask the bartender for a “Jack and Pepsi”? I rest my case Coke wins. This site needs a "like" button! Indeed! |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I know this is not CDa related but I keep a shot of redbull sugarfree in my t2 hat for short course and shoot it asap on the run and thats always a nice bit of caffeine. On a long course note, one of my coaches told me to switch to cola later in the run but never switch back to the other once you were on the cola. That hint stuck with me and I think that helped the end game last year. As regards the above, I know you've got two powerhouse knowledgeable folks discussing the various drinks, but I see no reason why you need to live off the course other than for water. I keep my water in my tri bottle (an inviscid) and two 3 hour bottles of concentrated gatorade endurance/carbo pro (with endurolytes as needed) on the rear of my seat drinking a third of it each hour. Whatever you are comfortable should work fine and you dont need to worry about that debate. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I didn't just go google up "various and sundry papers" to back up my points. I googled summaries of academic sources, and posted nutritional facts based on manufacturer claims. I even referenced studies to back up your point about the inefficiency of fructose absorption since there are less of the enzymes to absorb it. If I'm not mistaken, however... both sucrose and fructose are absorbed in the small intestine, not the stomach. The point of my careful sourcing was not really to back up my points, but to refute your unsourced claims (which were attacking my original points) which were false:
I clarified that excessive fructose can cause digestive trouble. It does so by passing through the intestine and entering the colon undigested, where it ferments and causes gas. If you end up in the porti-potty (vs. puking), you could consider the POSSIBLE role fructose played in that (however I don't believe there is credible evidence that the amount of fructose in PB perform is high enough to do that). Noted and appreciated on the sponsorship info. Saying my research is invalid without citing a reason and just saying "you can find anything on the internet" isn't a fair response, since you initially challenged my views with nothing but personal experience. "However you can believe what you want, I really don't care" is also false, or you wouldn't be responding. Citing your son's fructose intolerance is also irrelevant to the debate, other than to show that you have motivation to have read about fructose intolerance (which I acknowledged can exist, but is a straw man to the points I made about the benefits of limited fructose in products like PB perform). If you would like to find those studies to show your side, I'd be glad to read them. Until then, I contend that I didn't google studies to back up my point, but rather hold to my point based on my review of the studies. Just because I don't have a family member with stomach problems, doesn't mean today was the first time I read about sports nutrition. All that said, I'm glad we agree on the WHAT (live off the course if possible, and experiment with nutrtion to know what works for you, and all sugars eventually become glucose and then glycogen as the primary source of energy we need in aerobic exercise), even if we get there via a very differnt WHY. Apologies if we're bordering on an debate that gets in the weeds that most of the participants in this thread are not interested in. Maybe I'm biased, but I feel like my position (based on research and experience) was discredited with false info... and then when I backed it up with data, I was discredited as being biased and sloppy. I'm far too stubborn to back down from that, and whether I like it or not... I do care. And as I've said before, I think the debate is healthy if you (the reader) take the time to listen to both sides and make up your mind for yourself. If it gets you thinking about the science of sports nutrition, that's a good thing for your IM.
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Top 10 things we have learned??
Have fun, keep smiling, enjoy being considered crazy! Edited by gremlin327 2011-03-22 8:50 AM |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Great post Gary. |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() gremlin327 - 2011-03-22 8:42 AM Top 10 things we have learned??
Have fun, keep smiling, enjoy being considered crazy! GREAT POST!!! I feel a little more motivated today....... #4 without doubt.. #5 suspect.... just say'in |
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