JohnnyKay and Fred Doucette's HIM/IM focused Mentor group-CLOSED (Page 7)

Pacing.

Swim.  I haven't done a TT yet this year.  I am thinking my HIM pace will be around 1:45 to 1:50.  I will have to go out conservatively (I have a habit of gassing myself in the swim) and build up speed.  If I am breathing every three strokes, I am not going quite fast enough.  Breathing mostly every stroke (in a race only) switching sides occasionally or as conditions dictate, tends to give me a decent race pace.  Does anyone else breathing for RPE?  I kind of just made that up as I have zero competitive swimming experience.

Bike.  I really love the idea of power, I appreciate what an awesome tool it is.  But I tend to jump in with both feet on everything (I alluded to this in my bio about being happy I waited to pull the IM trigger).  DH and I want to learn how to use power, but for this year, we are limited by our scope to handle so many new things, so we agreed to put it off a year or two.  Heck, I haven't even figured out bike bottles or clip on aerobars for DH or a saddle for my TT bike...I have no business trying to figure out power too!  So this year we are training with HR on the bike and the run.  We just started and have mainly stayed in Z2 for base training, but we have both discovered that our RPE coincides pretty well with HR.  I think I will use RPE with  a HR crosscheck to keep myself honest on the bike.  I know it is not foolproof and I have to take wind/hills/etc into account to a certain extent, but I am hoping it will give me a sanity check on my bike pace.  

Even though I have not done anything longer than an Oly, even on short course events, I have occasionally had trouble accessing my run fitness, so I intellectually I can appreciate the damage you can do on a much longer bike segment.  I would like to arrive at the 1/2 marathon in Racine ready to put together a decent run.  

Q

Back when I actually swam (), I would execute them pretty close to how Dan describes.  My goal was to negative split, but I was almost always a few seconds faster in the first 100-200.  If I could hold a steady pace (which would 'feel' increasingly difficult) from 300-1000, then I felt I made a good effort.

As far as pacing in races, I did NOT use my 1000TT.  I used that to get a guage of swim progress and to set targets for swim workouts.  I would do a few long, steady swims in the pool at HIM or IM race effort.  In a reasonably measured course, I expect to be perhaps :05/100 faster due to the wetsuit.  That's probably about :05/100 slower than my 1000TT pace.  But since swim course can be so far off from accurate, I try not to think about anything excpet for how I feel each stroke in a race.  I've swam "1.2 miles" in under 30min and over 40min.  I can assure you that my actual pace was not that much different. 

This is good to hear and I angree about the long runs since they constitute at least 25% of my weekly mileage every week and that seems to be too high of a percentage. This year I have been doing many 3-5 mile runs at an easy pace 8:30ish to build my base. I have done up to 10 miles and nothing has killed me, but my legs are not as receptive the day after. I do not enjoy speedwork but can handle bricks and tempo runs, and when I'm strong long runs. So as I start my specific training should I just do easy runs, bricks, and tempo, and gradually build my long run up? And what pace should I run at tempo for if I do?

With this said Racine is about 15 weeks away so what can I do to lead to a successful run? Will this be enough time to get the fitness I need to run a 1:50 off the bike?

Exactly.  HR is a good gauge of stress on the body overall so its used for day to day training.  I have pretty high volume (900 hour/year), which works out right now to about 20-22 hours during non-rest weeks so its important not to over stress my body. Using HR prevents that. 

My coach then reverse engineers power zones for the race as preventing too much stress on the body is not an issue.  I generally know what my power ranges will be for any given HR, I just don't train by them (just like I know generally what my run paces are for any given zone).

We must have a lot of east coast flavor in this group...because when I wake up at 6am Hawaii time, I've got 2 pages to catch up on...LOL.

SWIM TT:  Haven't done a 500 or 1000 in the pool, but recently I've been doing a 2000m OWS on Fridays.  It's in a lagoon type area with pole markers.  Swim out 1000m to a pole, turn around, swim back.  Been doing that in the 39:30-40:30 range...or roughly 1:50 per 100 yards.  I wouldn't consider it a TT though...because I'm not going all out.  More less just trying to keep good form for a race distance.  Swimming is not my strength (only learned to swim about 18 months ago) and when I try to push hard, my form goes to crap...so I actually end up swimming slower when going hard.  My goal for swims during races is to just go my pace and latch on to as many feet as possible.  My race doesn't really start till I get out of the water.

BIKE PACING:  I use power on all my rides, but as mentioned before, I am currently planning on not using power for my HIM in favor of race wheels.  I also use HR, and my feel for RPE is not bad IMO.  Lots of times I can be riding at a steady effort, guess what wattage I'm riding at, look down, and I'm pretty close. 

I'll answer the last question first.  I have no idea!

Hopefully the rest of my answer attempts will expalin that one better.

My recommendation would be to do mostly 'easy' running.  Easy can actually be a range of paces depending on how you feel each day, what your training has been prior to that run, and what your trianing is coming up.  You can certainly do some bricks, especially if that helps you add some frequency (ie, don't drop a stand-alone run and replace it with a brick run--do the stand-alone run and add a short, easy run off the bike).  If you are able, I would add more runs first and add to the distance of longer runs later as you get closer to your race.

If you are adding the frequency and volume from above, I would suggest you do very little tempo this time.  If you do some, aim for something that's near open-marathon pacing (ie, the pace you'd hope to be able to run in the HIM) or perhaps slightly faster.  Probably better would be to just choose one day a week to add a few strides at the end of a short, easy run.  That should be enough to make you 'remember' how to run faster and also can be useful as a drill for improving running form (many people's form tends to improve when they run faster).

If you were already running near 30mpw (or, alternatively, if 15-20mpw is the most you are able/willing to commit to running for the long-term), then I'd suggest a weekly tempo run along with the strides would be a good idea.  And 'tempo' in that case could take you down to 10k paces.  But those runs are fairly stressful as well.  Generally, moreso than long runs.

Here's the thing.  15 weeks is actually relatively little time to make major improvements in your running.  Everyone is different and it matters a lot how close to your 'potential' you already are (the further away, the more you can accomplish over short time periods).  But building your running durability (through frequency and volume) are probably your best run-specific things you can do.  The swimming & biking, pacing & nutrition that we've been discussing are the other non-run-specific things that can actually lead to better tri running.

So now we're back to the last question.  I suggest that you will have a pretty good idea how feasibile this is by the time you get to your taper.  You'll have done all the swimming, biking and running that you could to impact your fitness.  Whether that will be good enough to yield your goal time depends on many individual factors.  But the more you are able to do in training (while recovering adequately), the closer you will get.  And, if you don't reach that goal this time, you will be set up to get even closer in the future.

Hope that helps some.

I think that is an excellent way to think about the swim during the race.  However, during training I think you should absolutely envision the race starting in the swim.  For all the reasons we've touched on so far--mostly that how you get out of the swim sets up the rest of your day.  Swim as hard as you can, as much as you can in training so that on race day the swim is just a nice warm-up.

Most people can actually extend this to the bike and first part of the run.  Many people make it to the half-way point of the HIM run or mile 10-18 of the IM marathon having a 'good' day.  That's when the wheels come off for many.  That's when the race should begin in your head.  You need enough in reserve--physically and mentally--to not slow down at that stage.  (I realize this may not be entirely applicable to those actually 'racing' for placing in their AG or looking to KQ, etc.  They may be willing to take more chances, as Dan did at Eagleman, to have that truly break-through race or to walk home knowing they at least gave it a shot.)

Totally agree.  I've noticed my biggest swimming gains when I was doing 50 and 100 yard intervals in the pool.  Basically beating the crap out of myself, but keeping the intervals short enough where my form doesn't deteriorate too much.  That in turn has made my longer distance swimming faster...at an easier effort.  Might have to start going back to those intervals.  Honestly...I dread swimming intervals more than anything.  I rather puke on my bike.

I generally find that the things I dread are the best for me in the long-run. 

The funny thing is I really don't dread swimming at all.  (Although, perhaps I should dread getting slower more than I have! )  Just grown too complacent about letting it be the discipline that 'slides' over the past year or so (partly for good reasons or, at least, accepted 'choice' on my part).  When I started tris, I swam more than most people and many thought I was crazy for doing so.  I just need to get back to being 'crazy'. 

What are the suggested paces people should be doing 50-100 intervals at in comparison to 1000yd TT time?  I know that my avg pace for the TT is 1:39, I'm just never too sure how close to that time I should swim for shorter sets.  (I'm sure we touched on this in the last group, but have completely forgotten).

docswim24 - 2011-04-14 8:28 AM A few sets I would try at a TT pace of 1:39/100 10x100@1:50, hold at TT pace or 4x300 @ 5:25, hold at TT pace or one of my favorite: 1x100 @ 2:15, 1x100 @ 2:10, etc dropping 5 seconds per hundred until you cannot hold it anymore. Good - you make the 1:40, Very good - you make the 1:35, WOW! - you make the 1:30.

Dan...I'm not sure what my 1000y TT pace is, but I know the last time I did 10x100, I was going on 2:00, but holding about 1:34-1:36.  Should I slow this down to maybe 1:40 and go on shorter rest like you suggested Neil @ 1:50?  Although I'm not quite sure I can hold 1:39 for 1000y.  If I had to guess, I would say I'm more like 1:47 pace for 1000.  Meaning my endurance is likely much weaker than Neil's.

I guess my question simply is if intervals should be done at harder pace, longer rest (25 seconds), or slightly easier pace and shorter rest (10 seconds) if the goal is to improve your 1.5k or 1.2 mile swim.

Dan's suggestions are good ones.  Especially that last one--ouch!

It really depends how many reps you are doing and how much rest you give yourself between reps.  I tend to do a lot of the same workouts over time.  I shoot for the best average pace I can get for a particular interval series and then try to meet or, hopefully over time, beat that average the next time out.  I also aim to not have a lot of variation between the fastest and slowest rep in an individual workout.

One workout that I like is 150s on 15" of rest.  The first 100 is hard and the last 50 is easy.  When I am 'on', the 100s are consistently :05 or more below T-pace for about 10-12 reps.  'On', of course, is relative to me, not Dan. 

docswim24 - 2011-04-14 1:28 PM

GoFaster - 2011-04-14 2:02 PM

docswim24 - 2011-04-14 1:38 PM Swimming hard like that is one of the most important things a triathlete can do to become a better swimmer. Intervals and/or swimming with people that are a bit faster and trying to hang on their feet are generally the hardest workouts I have.

What are the suggested paces people should be doing 50-100 intervals at in comparison to 1000yd TT time?  I know that my avg pace for the TT is 1:39, I'm just never too sure how close to that time I should swim for shorter sets.  (I'm sure we touched on this in the last group, but have completely forgotten).

A few sets I would try at a TT pace of 1:39/100 10x100@1:50, hold at TT pace or 4x300 @ 5:25, hold at TT pace or one of my favorite: 1x100 @ 2:15, 1x100 @ 2:10, etc dropping 5 seconds per hundred until you cannot hold it anymore. Good - you make the 1:40, Very good - you make the 1:35, WOW! - you make the 1:30.

My last swim for fitness instructor used to torture us with this workout. I might have to resurrect that one again soon. I totally agree about swimming with people who are a bit faster. I have a hard time challenging myself to hit times when I'm alone in the pool.