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2005-03-30 4:42 PM
in reply to: #132794


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Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
This "thread" has become a sweater!


2005-03-30 5:20 PM
in reply to: #135935

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo

I like how you think, Amanda. Quick and to the point. Matter of fact, and easy to read.

2005-03-30 7:03 PM
in reply to: #132794

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Got Wahoo?
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Subject: rant

"I feel good about this choice of morality even though it was necessary for someone like me who skirts along the fringe of what is acceptable by the majority. There are a lot of people out there who feel that my love for my partner is immoral or that my dressing in men's clothes even though I'm a woman is immoral."

Much more interesting topic than right to die or live (living and dying is as natural as breathing. Attempting to legislate it is folly and the hight of arrogance), but when in Rome....

Government is no more and no less than those we chose to govern. Government exists to serve society at large, not to dictate personal choice to society. This current govenrment is scary beyond belief in its singleminded arrogance. Since when did Liberty become a dirty word? This governemnt has done more and is doing more to limit and curtail rights than I would have believed possible. Not in my memory has society so blythly been led by the nose without looking up to see where we are headed. Who the hell is george bush to argue that gay's cannot have legal acknowledgement of their union? Who is george bush to tell me I have to believe in god or abide by gods "doctrin" to recieve federal funds? Who is george bush to circumvent the judicial branch of governemnt (and when that doesn't work, to threaten to use congress to limit funding for judicial districts that "parcipitated" in this case? who is george bush to hold funds for community healthcare clinics IF THEY ARE EVEN ASSOCIATED WITH THE GIVING OF ABORTIONS? george's wars are not based on terrorism, they're based on divinity, money and the classing of two differing fundamentalist viewpoints. george's economic policy is not based on improving the overall wealth of society, but on the increased wealth of the people how finance and lobby his campain to stay in power. george may very well be an honest and straightforward man, but honestly arrogant and straightforwardly dogmatic are not necessarilly good for the country that is supposed to be the worlds leader in free thinking and individualism.If none of these things bother you because they are all in line with your thinking, I understand and don't fault you for your positions. But be prepared for something from george that you don't like or agree with, because george doesn't give a rat's ass about the constitution or liberty or individual rights. He is dogmatic, rigid and simple. The only things this man cares about are money for big business and his god. If you don't fall into either of those two catagories, he could care less about you and your rights.Ok, Im done. And in protest I will not edit this for spelling or gramatical content. TAKE THAT, NEO-CONS!!!!!!



Edited by tmwelshy 2005-03-30 7:06 PM
2005-03-30 8:29 PM
in reply to: #135485

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Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
in my Advance health directive ( australian living will ) I have already said "I".
2005-03-30 9:52 PM
in reply to: #135997

Elite
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Subject: RE: rant
tmwelshy - 2005-03-30 4:03 PM

Who the hell is george bush to argue that gay's cannot have legal acknowledgement of their union?


It's all about the Benjamins.


who is george bush to hold funds for community healthcare clinics IF THEY ARE EVEN ASSOCIATED WITH THE GIVING OF ABORTIONS?


It's all about the Benjamins.


george's wars are not based on terrorism, they're based on divinity, money and the classing of two differing fundamentalist viewpoints.


It's all about the Benjamins.
2005-03-30 10:47 PM
in reply to: #132794

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Peachtree City, GA
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
This is a very difficult situation. I don't think it is morally right to sit and judge the actions of an individual based on my own limited knowledge of the details involved. I feel sympathy for both Mr. Schiavo and her parents. I know from what I feel right now as I sit in this chair that I would not want to continue in her state (who knows what that is) nor have my wife linger at my bedside for so many years. I think I would want her to continue her life without me and be as free from grief as possible. To be happy. I cant help but think of what my kids would think as I lay unresponsive in some bed. I wouldnt want them to remember thier daddy that way. I pray that this situation resolves itself in the best way possible for all parties involved. And by no means do I imply anything political with the term "parties". I find that if you make a sincere effort to place yourself in the situation of another rational person, you'll see that judging that person becomes so much more difficult than you could ever imagine.


2005-03-31 8:52 AM
in reply to: #135958

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Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
Thanks, Whiz. I've given stuff like this a lot of thought through the years. Or maybe it's just the midwesterner in me (was born down the road from you in Highland Park and grew up in Vernon Hills).
2005-03-31 9:31 AM
in reply to: #135680

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Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
Amanda,

Good Post... unfortunately, it's far too open-mined and inclusive for some... soooo, stop that thinking... stop it right now! ... it's dangerous - don't ya know

Joe Moya

Edited by Joe M 2005-03-31 9:32 AM
2005-03-31 9:40 AM
in reply to: #135997

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Buttercup
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Subject: RE: rant

Excerpt from court order denying latest appeal:

"Generally, the definition of an "activitist judge" is one who decides the outcome of a controversy before him according to personal conviction, even one sincerely held, as opposed to the dictates of the law as constrained by legal precedent and, ultimately, our Constitution. In resolving the Schiavo controversy it is my judgment that, despite sincere and altruistic motivations, the legislative and executive branches of our government have acted in a manner demonstrably at odds with our Founding Fathers' blueprint for the governance of a free people - our Constitution. Since I have sworn, as they have, to uphold and defend that Covenant, I must respectfully concur in the denial of the request for rehearing en banc."

http://www.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/ops/200511628reh2.pdf

I concur with Welshy; I sincerely believe that this administration is contemptuous of our Constitution and its checks/balances.



Edited by Renee 2005-03-31 9:41 AM
2005-03-31 9:42 AM
in reply to: #132794

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Pro
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Los Angeles, CA
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
If you guys didn't read it already or know about this, here's an interesting article off of CNN's front web page about whether Terri feels pain or not.

http://www.medpagetoday.com/tbindex.cfm?tbid=753&thePhoto=Today's&C...
2005-03-31 9:46 AM
in reply to: #135997

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Elite
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Venture Industries,
Subject: RE: rant
tmwelshy: You have to be careful how you characterize the issue regarding gay unions/ gay marriages. If you are in favor of recognizing gay unions/marriages you cannot argue that the government doesn't have a right or the power to regulate marriage, including what is a marriage. From a legal view point a marriage is a legally recognized contract between three parties, the individuals invovled in the marriage and the government. Because of this, the government does in deed have the power to regulate what marriages will be recognized. Thus, if you are in favor of recognizing gay marriages/gay unions arguing tht the government doesn't have the power to regulate who gets married or what is a valid marriage is your weakest argument. But this issue has always be reserved for the individual states. A stronger argument is that the Federal Government has no power to regulate marriages as that is a power that is reserved for the State's and the State's alone. This is actually a stronger argument based upon well settled Constitutional state's rights claims. Thus from a purely state's rights argument you could prevent Pres. Bush and the radical right from trying to pass a Consitutional amendment dictating on a Federal level what is or is not a valid marriage.

It continues to amaze my how the new republican party, the party that is supposed to be for less government, has infringed upon issues that have typically been reserved for the States. In essence more Federal government. The marriage issue and the Schiavo case are just two recent examples.


2005-03-31 10:06 AM
in reply to: #136123

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Elite
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Venture Industries,
Subject: RE: rant
Renee - 2005-03-31 9:40 AM

Excerpt from court order denying latest appeal:

"Generally, the definition of an "activitist judge" is one who decides the outcome of a controversy before him according to personal conviction, even one sincerely held, as opposed to the dictates of the law as constrained by legal precedent and, ultimately, our Constitution. In resolving the Schiavo controversy it is my judgment that, despite sincere and altruistic motivations, the legislative and executive branches of our government have acted in a manner demonstrably at odds with our Founding Fathers' blueprint for the governance of a free people - our Constitution. Since I have sworn, as they have, to uphold and defend that Covenant, I must respectfully concur in the denial of the request for rehearing en banc."

http://www.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/ops/200511628reh2.pdf

I concur with Welshy; I sincerely believe that this administration is contemptuous of our Constitution and its checks/balances.




Yeah Judge Birch!!!! Finally a judge that has come out a specifically said that Congress enactment of the law that granted federal jurisdiction in this matter is UNCONSITITIONAL. You know that little ole' document that forms the basis of our entire form of government.
2005-03-31 10:14 AM
in reply to: #132794

Elite
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Livingston, MT
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
I heard on the radio that she just passed.

2005-03-31 10:22 AM
in reply to: #136128

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Got Wahoo?
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Subject: RE: rant
I realize what you're saying has some merit, but it's a slippery-slope arguement you raise. The government has the right, under certain circumstances, to deny me my freedom, invade my house, even to put me to death. But it is how the governement uses this limited power that concerns us. There has to be just cause for these things.

I would argue that the government does not have the right to determine how we marry. The government has the right to control beach access, but does not have the right to say who I go to the beach with. It's the same thing and really is an overstepping of boundaries based upon religeous convictions and the desire to control other people's lives and ensure conformity.

Ultimately, the government acknowledges marriage, but confuses itlself with the two purposes of marriage. A bond before god, and a civil union that is financially and asset based. I would argue that the government does not have the right to determine who we marry, despite having the power to recognize the marriage itself.
2005-03-31 10:35 AM
in reply to: #136128

Elite
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Livingston, MT
Subject: RE: rant
ASA22 - 2005-03-31 6:46 AM

tmwelshy: You have to be careful how you characterize the issue regarding gay unions/ gay marriages. If you are in favor of recognizing gay unions/marriages you cannot argue that the government doesn't have a right or the power to regulate marriage, including what is a marriage. From a legal view point a marriage is a legally recognized contract between three parties, the individuals invovled in the marriage and the government. Because of this, the government does in deed have the power to regulate what marriages will be recognized. Thus, if you are in favor of recognizing gay marriages/gay unions arguing tht the government doesn't have the power to regulate who gets married or what is a valid marriage is your weakest argument. But this issue has always be reserved for the individual states. A stronger argument is that the Federal Government has no power to regulate marriages as that is a power that is reserved for the State's and the State's alone. This is actually a stronger argument based upon well settled Constitutional state's rights claims. Thus from a purely state's rights argument you could prevent Pres. Bush and the radical right from trying to pass a Consitutional amendment dictating on a Federal level what is or is not a valid marriage.

It continues to amaze my how the new republican party, the party that is supposed to be for less government, has infringed upon issues that have typically been reserved for the States. In essence more Federal government. The marriage issue and the Schiavo case are just two recent examples.


Neither party is for "less" government. At every turn they are introducing some new socialistic plan or expanding on the ones that already exist. The government is there to ensure that I my freedoms are safe, yet at every turn, it seems that those in government have their hand in my wallet to fund programs that I despise (welfare, unemployment, medicare, social security, public education, aid to foreign nations, etc.) using an unequal taxation system. IMHO, the government and the recipients of all of those social programs are nothing more than looters.

On the issue of gay marriage, how much tax revenue would be lost if gay marriages were recognized at both the state and federal level. Marriage should be nothing more than a contract between two parties in the eyes of the government, but it's not. It is the means by which tax breaks are handed out. Otherwise, who'd care?

It's all about the Benjamins...
2005-03-31 10:36 AM
in reply to: #136144

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Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
Eternal rest grant unto her, O Lord.
And let perpetual light shine upon her.


2005-03-31 10:43 AM
in reply to: #132794


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Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
According to Fox News...the parents has to "plead with Michael Schiavo" to let them be with Terri in her final hours....?? Why would that be? It just doesn't make sense to me.
2005-03-31 11:02 AM
in reply to: #136163

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Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
sharonnagy5 - 2005-03-31 9:43 AM

According to Fox News...the parents has to "plead with Michael Schiavo" to let them be with Terri in her final hours....?? Why would that be? It just doesn't make sense to me.


I'd take anything you hear on Fox News Propaganda Central with a big ole salt lick.
2005-03-31 11:07 AM
in reply to: #136174


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Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
I feel that way about CNN, too.
2005-03-31 11:10 AM
in reply to: #136150

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Elite
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Subject: RE: rant
tmwelshy - 2005-03-31 10:22 AM

I would argue that the government does not have the right to determine how we marry. The government has the right to control beach access, but does not have the right to say who I go to the beach with. It's the same thing and really is an overstepping of boundaries based upon religeous convictions and the desire to control other people's lives and ensure conformity.

Ultimately, the government acknowledges marriage, but confuses itlself with the two purposes of marriage. A bond before god, and a civil union that is financially and asset based. I would argue that the government does not have the right to determine who we marry, despite having the power to recognize the marriage itself.



On a purely legal basis I disagree. Clearly, based upon historical considerations and well established legal principles State governments do in fact have the legal authority to determine what a marriage is and to regulate marriages. By your argument does that mean you can marry a 12 year old. Of course not, because a state government has the right and power to regulate the age of marriage. What about "common law" marriages, some states recognize them some don't why. Because they have the power to. (This is purely a legal argument, from your post I think we would agree on the ultimate issue of recognition of gay unions)

The slippery slope is the interference of the Federal government in issues that have clearly been established as State's rights issues. Our U.S. congresmen seem to have forgotten basic concepts like seperation of powers and that the Federal government is a government of limited constitutional powers. Their powers have been granted, that which is not granted has been reserved! The Schiavo case illustrates the power lust and disregard for these concepts.
2005-03-31 11:11 AM
in reply to: #136181

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Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
sharonnagy5 - 2005-03-31 10:07 AM

I feel that way about CNN, too.


snort.


2005-03-31 11:29 AM
in reply to: #136157

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Subject: RE: rant
ChuckyFinster - 2005-03-31 10:35 AM
it seems that those in government have their hand in my wallet to fund programs that I despise (welfare, unemployment, medicare, social security, public education, aid to foreign nations, etc.) using an unequal taxation system. IMHO, the government and the recipients of all of those social programs are nothing more than looters.

It's all about the Benjamins...


is it all about Chucky Bush Benjamin?

I'm wondering if i misunderstand you, but no...it seems clear.

EDUCATION? If you can't afford private school, no education for you? Let's see, what can we do with all those uneducated kids? I know, they can be drafted and offered pathetic compensations to go fight the wars of the wealthy, the ones that did get an education. Never mind that education generally is the root of all things good and the number one key to pre-empting violence, crime, teen pregnancies, drug-abuse, perpetual hate, etc. Never mind that, like a diamond in the rough - we would find Einsteins, Da Vinci's, Beethoven's amongst these as you would have it, unnurtured. How should we heighten the income making ability then if not with education?

With the wealthy making the laws to enrich their wealth by finding the loop holes to NOT pay the taxes - who then is actually digging into your pocket? It would seem they are. If things ran properly as a working society in an "equal taxation" manner, perhaps the things you despise would be the things you appreciate...making dare i say, a better world of equality, and quality of life for all?

I will add that I believe many of these social systems ARE absolutely in dire need of rehabilatation. In particular the Education system indeed. The "No Child Left Behind" is a poor, underfunded, threatening, ill constructed, wrongly emphasized excuse for pathetic publicity. It is teaching kids NOT how to learn, but instead how to take tests. Check that, it is threatening kids (and teachers) that they better learn how to take tests with total disregard to a full-bodied learning process.

2005-03-31 11:34 AM
in reply to: #136158

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Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
dontracy - 2005-03-31 9:36 AMEternal rest grant unto her, O Lord.
And let perpetual light shine upon her.


Amen.
2005-03-31 11:36 AM
in reply to: #136200

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Buttercup
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Subject: RE: rant

Reality check: There's no such thing as a free lunch. While we cherish our freedoms, this society ain't FREE. Taxes are our price of admission. Sometimes the admission price goes up, sometimes it goes down.

Education is what the government pragmatically provides (thanks to us admission payers) to prevent anarchy and to provide a base of capable workers contributing to the overall GNP.

2005-03-31 11:53 AM
in reply to: #135958

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Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
John, I'd like to answer your question about the government getting involved in these end of life decisions.

If I'm understanding this case, the courts were trying to determine what Terri's wishes were because under Florida law she had the legal right to refuse continuing a feeding tube. If that's the case, then the moral decision rested with Terri.

If that indeed was her decision, I believe she made an immoral choice. So the question is, should the state have forced her to make a moral choice.

I believe that there are knowable moral absolutes. I do not believe that they should all be enforced by the rule of law. (BTW, this is also the teaching of the Catholic Church. I just want to note that for anyone who would put the Church under the heading of right-wing fundamentalism)

So it's a balancing act. Where should laws be enacted to force adherence to a moral truth, and where is it better to state the moral truth and leave the observance of it to a process of cultural change.

Maybe Jefferson provided us with the best example of this balance. He acknowledged the existence of natural law and the unalienable right to liberty. At the same time, he was a slave owner. I can just speculate about this, but perhaps he understood that his enslavement of persons was morally wrong, but he also realized that enforcing the morally right actions would mean that the union would never come together. Perhaps he had faith in the universal truth of the unalienable right to liberty and knew that eventually it would get worked out.

Of course, it took a civil war plus more than another hundred years to work out. And we're still not finished.

So as far as end of life legal decisions go, I'd say the best place for them to be worked out is at a state by state level. As I said before, I think the intervention by the president and congress was wrong.

If I had to vote up or down on a proposal here in Pennsylvania, I might lean toward voting to make removing a feeding tube in a quality of life case illegal (as long as the intention in removing the tube was to bring about death) and I might lean toward voting to make removing a feeding tube in an end of life case legal, even though I view the action in both cases to be immoral.

(extra note added a few minutes later) If I were still living in California or New York, I might lean toward voting to make both acts legal. My vote might be different because I'd have to consider the difference in the cultures of California and New York from the culture in Pennsylvania.


Edited by dontracy 2005-03-31 12:10 PM
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