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2005-03-22 12:53 PM

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Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: Terri Schiavo

I appreciate the way this site brings people together, and tends to steer away from controversial subjects. But I just feel too strongly about this issue. I write this in the spirit of a friend talking to friends, whether or not we agree.

What’s happening to Terri Schiavo is simply wrong. She is being killed by starvation. All she needs to live is food and water.

Everyone in her family wants her to live except her husband, and his motives are questionable.

Terri has brain damage. She lives and acts and breaths and eats exactly like a person with her kind of brain damage lives and acts and breaths and eats. This should not be a case, as it seems the judge in Florida has made it, about whether or not she will get better. That should be irrelevant. Her life is worthwhile exactly as it is.

I fear that we continue to move to a culture that believes that human life is only worthwhile if it produces something, or if it meets a certain standard that we set, or if it is not inconvenient to us.

We seem to be losing the wisdom that life is precious for its own sake.

Edited by dontracy 2005-03-22 12:56 PM


2005-03-22 1:37 PM
in reply to: #132794

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COURT JESTER
12230
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ROCKFORD, IL
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
Strong topic and I'll chime in. Not from a right or wrong, but from what my wife and I discusses.

She had stated that if she were a brain damaged and a vegtable that she would not want me to keep her alive like that. I then asked "If you were a vegtable, I understand, but what if it was severe brain damage where you were awake, could recognize people, but couldn't communicate, show affection or have a good quality of life?" Reply: "That's would be a tough choice?"

I said to her, if I'm that severly brain damaged, and can not return the love that others would give me, there's not need for her to go through that and to please send me home to meet my maker in heaven.

2005-03-22 1:59 PM
in reply to: #132794

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Extreme Veteran
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Boston, MA
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo

Terri's right to live is all her own, not her husband's, her parent's or the federal government's. From what i understand, she had said to her husband that if she was ever in a situation similar to the one she is in, then she would not want to continue. Why should the government decide if she should live or die when she had already decided for herself?

Secondly, the right-wingers in DC who seem to be supporting any intervention into this case, which legally i do not believe they have any right to be doing, are the same group who upholds the marriage of a man and a woman as this sacred entity, yet make an end run around terri's husband and ignore his opinion completely.

Numerous doctors have already been brought into this at the state level and have decided that Terri has zero cognitive abilities and has no understanding of what is going on around her. If you would like to continue living if that were to happen to you, i have no right to say that you are wrong, but Terri decided she doesnt want to live this way. I will be happy to see her go, jsut how she would have wanted it.

2005-03-22 2:17 PM
in reply to: #132794

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Buttercup
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Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo

We've been following this for a long time in Florida. It's a very sad case.

The husband's position is that his wife told him she would never want to be kept alive if she were a "vegetable." He says he's trying to honor her wishes. It's not that he doesn't want to keep her alive, it's that he feels that this is not what she wanted for herself.

The parents are in denial that she in a vegetative state despite what the doctors (including neurologist) have concluded. And they also contend that she would want to be kept alive via artificial means.

FWIW, I told my mother that I want her to make these kind of decisions for me if I were not able to make them for myself, but that if I had no brainwaves, was basically brain dead and had only a functioning brain cortex that I did not want her to keep my body alive when my mind was long gone. I have my annual physical next month; I have to get papers (Living Will/Five Wishes document, I think) notarized with my primary doctor so that everything is properly spelled out and the State, the Courts, and the US Congress and Executive Branch won't be interfering with my wishes - and no one has to second guess or debate what I want.

My mother let me know that she thinks parents should make these decisions, regardless of the age of the child. If I ever remarry, I'll have to reconsider whether I want her to make those decisions for me. I wouldn't want anyone to go through what this family is going through, nor would I want my mother to have animosity towards my husband for simply carrying out my wishes. That's why having a legal document is so important - to protect my wishes and to allow my "durable power of attorney for health care" to carry out those wishes.

2005-03-22 2:30 PM
in reply to: #132794

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Extreme Veteran
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Delray Beach, FL
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
This is a controversial topic... We do not want our love ones to die, period. But I often question if we should be selfish to the extreme to keep someone we love alive, in a bed uncapable to take care for themselves...
I think that sometimes we have to stop thinking about ourselves and let go. Sometimes when we let go, we really show how much we love.
I do not believe that death is the end of everything. Death is as natural as being alive. If it wasn't for modern technology Terry would've died long time ago.
What do we do with our pets when they are really sick? We show compassion, we "put them to sleep". I wonder if our socety is more compassionate toward animals than fellow humans.
I read an incredible book called the Tibetan book of life and death. Amazing. My thoughts about life and death changed because of the wisdom in that book.
Western civilization look at death as something horrible and bad. If we think that death is not the end but may be the beginning of a wonderful "else", then people would think different about this case. I believe the most compasionate thing you can do for a love one is to prepare them to die, help them in the transition. You have to learn how to live and die in a way that any day is a good day to die.
But that is my view, that is a decision each one of uf should make (not the family, not the husband and definetely not the government) I would not want to live like her.
2005-03-22 2:30 PM
in reply to: #132794

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Veteran
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Denver
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
I hope that this terrible issue will bring more people to get a properly documented living will. Your loved ones must be told what your wishes are, and those wishes also need to be put in writing.
It is everyone's personal responsibility to make their wishes know to all who may possibly be in the decision making position when it comes to the point. If you do not make these wishes clear and in no uncertain terms, you are placing your loved ones in a terrible position to have to make very tough decisions at a time when they are emotionally fragile.

On this Schiavo case I have very strong opinions. The woman made her wishes known. Professional consensus is that she will never recover. She is in a vegetative state. I will not elaborate my opinion of her parents, because it is indeed very harsh. Let the poor woman go, abide by her wishes.


2005-03-22 4:55 PM
in reply to: #132794

Elite
2458
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Livingston, MT
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
I haven't been following this all that closely, but hasn't this issue been brewing for something like fourteen years? If her wish was to pass (I remember hearing that she expressed her wish to pass to three different people, not just to her husband), it seems quite disrespectful to have kept her alive as long as her parents have.

Again, I haven't been following this all that closely, so my facts may be way off.

If this were my wife, I would trade places with her in an instant if it were possible. I certainly would not remarry and have kids until this was resolved. I just can't imagine ever seeing my wife in such a state.

It seems like all parties involved from the husband, parents, and the government are all rather wackey. Terri is the one who is being robbed of any dignity.

2005-03-22 7:05 PM
in reply to: #132819

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Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
I appreciate everyone's posts and opinions. I offer these counter arguments in response to some.

From what i understand, she had said to her husband that if she was ever in a situation similar to the one she is in, then she would not want to continue.


I believe her husband had a very different story before he won a substantial law suit. He argued that the money was needed for her ongoing therapy. I believe he changed his story only after they won the suit. So is he really to be believed?

And if he is, I believe he said that her comments came at the funeral of someone who had been terminally ill. Terri is not terminally ill. What would she think about someone in her condition? Are we absolutely certain about what she would have wanted?

Why should the government decide if she should live or die when she had already decided for herself?


It's far from certain that she had decided to die if she were in the state she is in.

Regardless, the government indeed does have the right to decide such things. Suicide is illegal in every state in the US except Oregon where physician assisted suicide is legal. Would anyone argue that the state does not have a right to prevent suicide?

And in this case, Terri's lawyers were trying to argue that she was being denied due process. That's a matter that the government certainly has a say in.

The parents are in denial that she in a vegetative state despite what the doctors (including neurologist) have concluded. And they also contend that she would want to be kept alive via artificial means.


I don't think they're in denial. I think they're angry that the money that was suppose to go toward her therapy was witheld by her husband (who argued for its necessity during the civil suit).

I think they'd at least like to give the therapy he argued for a shot.

I do not believe that death is the end of everything. Death is as natural as being alive. If it wasn't for modern technology Terry would've died long time ago.


The only technology she needs is a feeding tube. That's hardly high tech. She was not dying before they removed the tube. All she needs to sustain life at this point is food and water, just like the rest of us. The only difference with her is that she cannot swallow. That's it.

This is not a woman who was on the brink of death and receiving heroic efforts to keep her alive. All she needs is food and water.

Death is natural.


My argument is that she is not being allowed to die naturally, but is being put to death. She is being euthanized by starvation.

Western civilization look at death as something horrible and bad. If wethink that death is not the end but may be the beginning of a wonderful"else", then people would think different about this case.


It's pretty clear that Terri's parents believe in an afterlife. I think it's their belief in a "wonderful else" that causes them to value life in this world so dearly.

She is in a vegetative state.


So are we now saying that it is ok to euthanize someone who is in a persistant vegetative state? If so, what will be the next category of human being that it will be ok to euthanize?

Terri is the one who is being robbed of any dignity.


I belive that her dignity is robbed when we consider that her life, as it is, is worthless. Terri Schiavo is a human person who has dignity and worth simply because she is.

Simply because she is.

I believe she is being euthanized right now because we've come to believe that her life, as it is, does not have dignity and should be erased.


Edited by dontracy 2005-03-22 7:15 PM
2005-03-22 7:21 PM
in reply to: #132794

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Veteran
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Florida!
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
i know i haven't been active in a bit - but i recorded some of my thoughts on this issue elsewhere, i'll copy and paste them here in the spirit of civilized discussion.

my random and assorted thoughts on the subject:

(1) terri schiavo had a stroke 15 years ago. 15 years. for 15 years she's been in this condition and for 15 years it hasn't changed.

(2) the schiavos won ~$1 million in a lawsuit, most of which was put in a trust for terri's care (the remainder was paid directly to michael schiavo, as it was payment to him for his loss of his wife's companionship). this money has been used to provide terri's care and although michael would get what's left in the trust when terri dies, there's not much left (by all accounts).

(3) the first five or six years after receiving this money michael schiavo tried therapies and modalities to care for and rehabilitate his wife and nothing worked. it does appear as though there might have been a few treatments michael didn't pursue, but he didn't sit on his ass and do nothing.

(4) after five/six years of no progress, michael arrived at the conclusion that there was no hope and petitioned the court for the removal of terri's feeding tube. he presents testimony that (a) there is no hope for rehabilitation and his wife is in a permanent vegetative state and (b) his wife told him she would not want to be kept alive by artificial means under these circumstances. terri's parents oppose him. the court takes evidence and rules in michael schiavo's favor. this is now 2000.

(5) during the years between terri's stroke and the court's ruling, michael takes nursing classes and becomes a nurse so he can assist in her care. he meets and connects with another woman. they live together and have two children. he does not divorce terri out of respect and because she is his wife. the woman he lives with respects this and even helps in terri's care.

(6) between the original ruling in 2000 and the present nineteen courts have taken evidence and have ruled upon michael schiavo's request to have terri's feeding tube removed. terri's parents oppose him in every court battle. all nineteen courts and judges that hear the case and all evidence rule in michael schiavos favor.

(7) the independent doctor retained by the court testified that there is no chance that terri schiavo will ever recover. schiavo's two medical experts also testified that there is no chance of hope. the schindlers' two medical experts testified that there is a chance of recovery. all courts who have heard the testimony of these medical experts held that terri schiavo has no chance of recovery.

(8) significant court costs, expert witness fees and attorneys fees have been expended needlessly in this case because the schindlers keep appealing to political bodies that are not typically involved in these sorts of determinations.

(9) terri schiavo is currently being kept alive by artificial means. if nature had been permitted to take its course she'd have passed years ago. i hear much talk about doctors and michael schiavo "playing god" by removing her from the feeding tube and allowing her to die but isn't medicine already "playing god" by allowing her to live this long?

i think my personal bent is clear from my summary. but seriously (a) nineteen courts have heard all of the evidence (at which most of us are just guessing and throwing out tidbits) and ruled in michael schiavo's favor and (b) this is not a matter for the US Congress and i find it appalling that they passed a special bill providing for federal jurisdiction over the appeal. the US Supreme Court denied review. it should have ended there (and this may escape many of you, but it is highly noteworthy that the Congress basically overruled the Supreme Court. that's big stuff and i believe Congress and the president far overextended their powers.).
2005-03-22 9:07 PM
in reply to: #132940

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Extreme Veteran
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50025
Boston, MA
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo

Suicide is illegal in every state in the US except Oregon where physician assisted suicide is legal. Would anyone argue that the state does not have a right to prevent suicide?

The word suicide should not even be brought up in this argument. It is a refusal to of care, which is an inalienable right which everyone should be allowed, not a suicide attempt. Should those whose religions dictate that they not recieve specific medical treatments as dictated by thier religion be forced by congress to recieve care, whether it be a blood transfusion, medications or a feeding tube.

If the government lets itself decide what we can and can't put in our bodies, i dont even want to think about where that could lead.



Edited by redbullgt337 2005-03-22 9:08 PM
2005-03-22 9:09 PM
in reply to: #132940

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Extreme Veteran
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500100100
Delray Beach, FL
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
Well, if we do the same and start quoting each other we will never end the discussion. I respect your point of view. Glass half full or half empty. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I've seen people in life support. I've seen the tubes and the bed sores. You know what? I had a living will form in my desk half filled ever since Terri's case was brought up on TV. I've been procrastinating. My fault.
Your post just hit me. I cannot leave this decision to other people, Murphy's law...


Edited by clflgrl 2005-03-22 9:10 PM


2005-03-22 10:58 PM
in reply to: #132794

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Master
2447
200010010010010025
Marietta, Ga
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo

#1  The right to live or die should never be a case of "he said, she said".  If it's not written down in a living will, notarized and validated, then the benefit of the doubt should be with keeping the person alive.  A person's life or death should never be in the hands of another who stands to benefit materially from the decision.  It should never exist outside of any statements that cannot be directly attributed to that person, without absolute credibility and certainty.

#2.  We don't treat stray dogs the way we're treating this woman.  I dare any one of you to sit in her room right now, watching her lips crack and bleed, watching her chest heave to breathe, watching her suffer of dehydration.  I dare you to not give in to your humanity to want to give her drink and food.  At least with a dog, they're put to sleep.  Why not put a gun to the back of her head, what's the difference?  Its a 170 grain bullet and instantaneous relief versus two weeks of absolute torture.  I'll tell you what it is, cowardice and a very warped sense of right and wrong.

#3.  What ever happened to the sanctity of life?  Have we become so secular of a society that this is purely a legal issue, something academic to be argued by judges and lawyers?  For those of you who have children, don't your hearts break for the parents who have to sit and watch their child slowly starve to death, regardless of her condition?  The posts above make you all sound like you heard from the woman herself that she wants to die.  There is not one shred of evidence, not one, beyond her husband's statements, that she in fact desires to be dead.  What makes you folks all experts in who should live and who should die?  I never want to be in a place where I have to make that decision for another, not pretending here on BT, not on any blogs, not in any friendly debates, and not certainly in real life.

#4.  I spent a lot of my time as a young adult working with the mentally handicapped.  There were many people who couldn't feed themselves, I personally fed a few of them.  What makes this woman so different?  Why should she die, cause her husband say's so?  No.  Heresay does not hold up in court over petty theft.  It shouldn't hold up in this case where it concerns life and death.

#5.  I am really saddened by this entire situation.  How callous must you be to sit in your living room, coffee shop, or office and sumarily decide that someone should be starved to death, regardless of their condition?  You can debate the merits of the Iraq war, of high gas prices, or who should win American Idol, but why on God's green earth would you offer an opinion in support of her death from where you sit?  How can you with a clear conscience?  You're just guessing, basing your opinion on what you've heard on CNN.  You should be either in support of her life or silent.  I don't understand how anyone who doesn't have first person knowledge of this situation could even begin to advocate her death.  It is apalling and it breaks my heart.



Edited by Motivated 2005-03-22 11:00 PM
2005-03-22 11:47 PM
in reply to: #132794

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Extreme Veteran
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SW part of US
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
I'm beginning to feel as some...

The political aspects of this situation are simply an extension of "right to life" advocates (or at least a close cousin).

Heavy Sigh...

Joe Moya
2005-03-23 1:12 AM
in reply to: #133027

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Extreme Veteran
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Townsville
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
  You can debate the merits of the Iraq war, of high gas prices, or who should win American Idol, but why on God's green earth would you offer an opinion in support of her death from where you sit?  How can you with a clear conscience? >


I can advocate on her behalf because if I were in that situation I would EXPECT someone to make a realistic descion and remove the source of ARTIFICIAL feeding.

 
I don't understand how anyone who doesn't have first person knowledge of this situation could even begin to advocate her death.  It is apalling and it breaks my heart.



I dont know how anyone can sit in judgement and force her to stay alive in such a state. The lack of stimulation, the lack of loving care by most of the people who deal with her, the knowlage that she will never recover according to expert doctors and the fact that she would have died NATURALLY if the ARTIFICAL feeding tubes had not been placed in there in the first place.

I am a strong advocate for Euthanasia.

i am also a strong advocate for Advanced health directives / living wills.

Terri made the first mistake by NOT having one of these in WRITING. i urge all of you to get one of these so that ( God/dess forbid) if you who are reading this, ever have an accident and become like terri that YOUR wishes are done.... whether it is to stay alive OR die. PUT IT IN WRITING!!!!!!!!!!
2005-03-23 7:41 AM
in reply to: #132794

Member
31
25
Indiana
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
Maybe in the honor of Terri- If you don't have a living will - you should.. this way your family isn't destroy..... I have one..
2005-03-23 8:17 AM
in reply to: #132794

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Expert
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Potomac, Maryland
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
The courts have consistently upheld the position of Michael Schiavo.  I think all of this could have been avoided had there been a living will.  Absent that important document control of your life and death will devolve onto others -- family, friends, doctors, and in the worst case scenario the courts, congress and public opinion.  The right to life and its sanctity is inherent in our society so it is to be expected that when there is no clear expression of preference from the patient, that society will do whatever it can to preseve life.  This is for the common good.  It is unfortunate that this situation has developed the way it has.  Those who do not think sustained heroic measures should be used to prolong life would do well to get their own living wills in order.


2005-03-23 10:01 AM
in reply to: #132794

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Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo

As you’ve not doubt heard, the Circuit Court of Appeals has rejected the Schindler’s appeal. Baring anything unforeseen, Terri Schiavo will soon be dead.

My own opposition to this act stems from my decades long opposition to the death penalty. I believe it’s morally wrong to execute a prisoner. Our society has developed to the point that we can keep even the most monstrous criminal from causing any further harm. We must keep ourselves safe, but we have no moral right to kill a prisoner.

Why?

I believe that it’s because we posses something unmeasurable that defines us as human persons. Certain religions have a language for what this quality is, but it’s also possible to see it from a secular perspective. We possess the spark of life, and I believe that it is immoral to take that spark away from someone. I believe that it is illogical to define human life with quantifiable measurements like cognitive capability. Every time I’ve tried to do that I’ve run into one logical roadblock or another.

So I try to build my moral life on this reasoned conclusion: human beings posses life and it is immoral to take it away. It’s the basis of why I believe the death penalty is wrong and it is why I believe euthanasia is wrong.

It’s important to understand that Terri Schiavo was not a dying person. Withholding certain treatments from someone near death requires a completely different set of moral and ethical calculations. She is a brain damaged, but otherwise healthy human being. All she needs for life is food and water. Terri Schiavo is being passively euthanized. She is being denied a basic necessity of life, food and water.

I worked as a volunteer for many years with the mentally handicapped. They taught me a lot about what it means to be human. It didn’t require any religious dogma or doctrine to see that even the most severely handicapped person possessed the same special spark of life that we all posses. Their lives are worthwhile and worth living. They offer a testament to the power of hope.

Suicide is the death of hope. It is saying that there are ways of living that are sub-human and should be snuffed out. And that brings up a lot of questions. Where does the line get drawn? If we say that someone with the kind of brain damage that Terri has should be euthanized, then what about other mental conditions? What if Down Syndrome people began to advocate for the right to physician assisted suicide because they felt that their lives were not worth living. Where does it end? Find me a logical and reasoned position on how to limit sanctioned suicide and euthanasia and I will consider the position again.

Euthanasia, suicide, and physician assisted suicide are bad for society. They create a culture that says that it is ok to take your life if you don’t like the way it is going. Try talking to a teenager in the midst of depression about the need to hold onto life while all around them the culture is saying that what is really important is how you feel and that it’s ok to let go of life if you want to.

There are people of good will on both sides of this issue. It’s heartening that what both sides want is what’s good for Terri. However, we have a major disagreement about what constitutes the “good”. It’s vital that we have this debate in our society. It’s important while doing so that we disregard the usual straw man arguments. This dialog should not devolve into one that pits the religious versus the secular, or the left versus the right. It is about getting to the heart of the matter and uncovering what is truly right.

Edited by dontracy 2005-03-23 10:22 AM
2005-03-23 11:05 AM
in reply to: #133027

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Pro
5153
50001002525
Helena, MT
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo

#5.  I am really saddened by this entire situation.  How callous must you be to sit in your living room, coffee shop, or office and sumarily decide that someone should be starved to death, regardless of their condition?  You can debate the merits of the Iraq war, of high gas prices, or who should win American Idol, but why on God's green earth would you offer an opinion in support of her death from where you sit?  How can you with a clear conscience?  You're just guessing, basing your opinion on what you've heard on CNN.  You should be either in support of her life or silent.  I don't understand how anyone who doesn't have first person knowledge of this situation could even begin to advocate her death.  It is apalling and it breaks my heart.

You're calling people wrong, Karl. They are not trying to dictate whether she should live or die. They are saying that she should have the right to refuse care. We don't have any living will or written document saying what her wishes would be in this specific case, so all we have to go on is a comment she made to her husband. Just because she neglected to do something the VAST majority of people neglect to do shouldn't mean that her life should be in the hands of the government. It is appalling and breaks my heart that Tom Delay, Jeb and George W. Bush think they know this woman's wishes better than her own husband. Yes.... what she's lacking is just food and water, but she cannot swallow, therefore the administration of food and water is health care which she has the right to deny.

Ok, now I'm getting fired up.... Sorry..... Here is the thing that I find the saddest and most ironic. The same guys that are fighting tooth and nail to save Terri Schaivo's life would like to slash Medicare, which has paid for much of the cost of keeping her alive to this day. I guess their 'respect of life' works in the specific, but not in the general?

2005-03-23 12:13 PM
in reply to: #132794

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Master
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Chicago
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
I've tried so hard to stay out of this discussion. It's like a nuclear bomb! But here's my blog on it. Feel free to read it. http://righttoquestion.blogspot.com/
2005-03-23 12:39 PM
in reply to: #132794

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Master
4101
20002000100
Denver
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
For me, I take issue with the government imposing its views onto Terri. If she expressed the wish not to be kept alive artificially if she were in a vegetative state, as her husband, other witnesses and 19 courts have agreed, I thikn we should have the respect to disagree with her decision, but to abide by it, and not to impose our own views onto her; and I would hope this respect for others beliefs is a shared religious and secular value.

"Shall the state be allowed to interfere in the most delicate, complicated personal matters of life, death and health because a particular religious constituency holds that their belief system should override each individual's right to make these personal decisions for him or herself."

I don't think anyone from either side would argue that life is not sacred, but it is her life, not mine, so who am I, or Tom deLay or president Bush (who incidently signed a law as governor allowing doctors to remove patients from life support if the patient cannot pay and there is no chance of revival, even against the wishes of the parents/guardian) to tell her that her beliefs are wrong.

Edited by drewb8 2005-03-23 12:43 PM
2005-03-23 1:17 PM
in reply to: #132794

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Extreme Veteran
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Thunder Bay, Ontario
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
This is a areally tough discussion and it was so hard not to comment, but wasn't Terri already committing suicide by having the eating disorder in the first place??


2005-03-23 1:40 PM
in reply to: #132794

Elite
2458
20001001001001002525
Livingston, MT
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
1. Does anyone here think that Terri is capable of experiencing Joy and Happiness in her vegetative state? Nobody can know for certain, but I'm curious what you folks think.

2. Many people have questioned how we can believe the husband as to her desires to be removed from life support. I don't have a living will and yet I have made my wishes known to my wife and she has done the same to me. Those of you that question the husband, are you calling him a liar on the basis that he never had the conversation and is saying he did, or are you calling him a liar because you think he has had the conversation but is ignoring her wishes?

3. She has no hope of recovery, her cortex is liquified. Every neurologist has expressed this except for one that has been making the rounds on the talk shows (he has recently been exposed as a fraud). The fact is, she WILL die a much more horrific death if her life support is not removed (most likely from a disease like pneumonia - think extended suffocation or drowning). It is a wonder that she has survived this long as life expectancy for someone in her condition is about six years. The fact she has made it fourteen is amazing. Which is worse, removing her life support now, or letting her sit in limbo (or the state you think she is in from my first question) for x number of years until she meets a more horrific demise?

4. Final question, if you were Terri Shiavo, it's 14 years later, your cortex is liquified, you can not recover, you are a burden to society, you are a burden to your husband, your parents don't want to let go, you may or may not be suffering, what do you want done for you and who would you want making the decision, your spouse or your parents?
2005-03-23 2:23 PM
in reply to: #132940

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Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
dontracy - 2005-03-22 7:05 PM

Suicide is illegal in every state in the US except Oregon where physician assisted suicide is legal. Would anyone argue that the state does not have a right to prevent suicide?


Laws against suicide have to be nearly as asinine as those against sodomy. Maybe even more asinine. First of all, how are you going to enforce a law against suicide? Are you going to fine someone who has succeeded and is already dead or are you going to jail someone who has not succeeded and is in mental anguish?

Personally, I think suicide is unfathomably horrible, but you can be sure I've told my loved ones in no uncertain terms to help me suicide if I'm ever in a vegetative state. Again, though, my personal feelings. The fact of the matter is that just as governments should not get in the way of living a safe and productive life that harms no one, they should also not get in the way of ending your own life if you don't want to continue it. As I understand it, a number of rulings have determined that Terri's wishes were not to continue to live as she exists now. This is about as far from the death penalty as you can get. Removing her feeding tube would not be against her will; it would be enacting her right to end her own life.
2005-03-23 3:13 PM
in reply to: #132811

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Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
this is not a matter for the US Congress and i find it appalling thatthey passed a special bill providing for federal jurisdiction over theappeal. the US Supreme Court denied review. it should have ended there (andthis may escape many of you, but it is highly noteworthy that theCongress basically overruled the Supreme Court. that's big stuff and ibelieve Congress and the president far overextended their powers.)

This is a good point and one that I need to think about more. Just as my opposition to the death penalty is not based on problems with due process, neither is my opposition to removing Terri's feeding tube. In the middle of all of this, we need to live by the rule of law and then work to change those laws we believe are unjust.


Does anyone here think that Terri is capable of experiencing Joy and Happiness in her vegetative state?

I honestly don't know. But the question raises another one for me. Is experiencing joy and happiness the determining factor in whether someone has the right to live?

She has no hope of recovery, her cortex is liquified. Every neurologisthas expressed this except for one that has been making the rounds onthe talk shows

Well I don't think anyone has argued that she is brain dead. If she were, why not harvest her organs for donation? The argument being made is that she can't swallow and that feeding her via a tube is "artificial".

Final question, if you were Terri Shiavo, it's 14 years later, yourcortex is liquified, you can not recover, you are a burden to society,you are a burden to your husband, your parents don't want to let go,you may or may not be suffering, what do you want done for you and whowould you want making the decision, your spouse or your parents?

If Terri is experiencing anything who knows what she's thinking. That's the point. For all we know she may want to keep on living.

She did not leave a written directive.  Even if she had, it would be highly improbable that it would have addressed the exact cirmumstances she finds herself in.

It's not uncommon for people who have suffered a traumatic accident that radically alters their life to want to die. It's also not uncommon for them to change their mind and begin to value their life once again.

First of all, how are you going to enforce a law against suicide?

Well I don't know this for a fact, but I imagine that there are laws that would compel a gun dealer to report someone who was buying a gun in order to commint a murder. In the same way I imagine that they would need to report someone threatening suicide. So yes, there are plenty of ways to enforce laws against suicide.

An act of suicide is not a private act. It has an ill effect on other members of society. Because of that, it is right that we should have laws to prevent it.

With that, I'm outta here. I'm going to the Adirondacks for a few days of skiing. Thanks again to everyone who has posted on this thread. I look forward to reading further posts on Monday.




Edited by dontracy 2005-03-23 3:16 PM
2005-03-23 3:21 PM
in reply to: #132794

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Subject: RE: Terri Schiavo
I am not going to argue whether or not she should live. I want to express my disappointment in all of the people who attend executions for murderers who are not there supporting her or the family. The National Organization for Women. Why are they so silent about this subject. Here is a women in need of help or not, but they are silet. Where is Amnesty International. Isn't she suffering? I am tired of certain organizations picking and choosing who deserves support. Be consistent across the board and I would have more respect for them.

Mike
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