Nov 15-Dec 15 "Swim Speed Secrets" Book Club (Page 8)

Firstly, that's a crazy set.  Absolutely amazingly strong work.

Secondly, WOW to the Sheila T shout-out!  it is super cool that she got back to you like that.  I TOTALLY don't blame her for not doing the forum thing ;)

Ben, you are really getting fast.  Congratulations on the new times.

Arend, that workout sounds god awful.  I have always HATED surprise workouts from coaches, which is probably some indicator that they're good for me;)  Also, it's intersting for me to hear that when you focus on high elbow, you're feeling it so much.  In a way that makes me feel better :)

I'm going to try workout 1 today over lunch.  I'll let you all know how it goes.  Who is actually doing the SS workouts?  Thoughts?

I am going to stick as closely to the prescribed SS workouts as possible, trying to give them a fair test and to allow adequate rest.  This will end up being a reduction in both my weekly freuency and volume, so I'm a little nervous about that, but I want to try to do it to the letter.

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Someone recommended watching this talk by Gerry Rodriguez.  I haven't made it all the way through (the youtube postings are a little hard to follow in order), but one of the bits I saw yesterday was discussing the differences between pool swimming and open water swimming and strokes per minute. (Sheila also talks about stroke cycle at length). Rodriguez also emphasized "good" open water swimmers should be swimming at at least 80 strokes/minute. 

Do you all find that your pool stroke and OWS stroke are very different?  If our goal is OWS, should we be practicing more like that in the pool?  Anybody swimming with a metronome to work on it?

Don't have the workouts yet, but plan to get them at some point. Probably not in time for the group though.

Have seen the talk come up before and it's supposed to be good to listen to. Haven't done it yet though. And per the stroke, I don't consciously try to do anything different when going outdoors. Don't really have the knowledge or ability to switch things up other than vary the pace, so I stick with what I know best. Having a faster stroke rate is a good point. We get caught up at times looking at Sun Yang or Grant Hackett, assuming they have the best method as they're the last two record holders in what we think is the best translation to what we do. I forget what the stroke rates are, but many of the guys do swim with a bit higher rate and spl. The women are much higher. While they're smaller than the guys, many are still near 6' tall, so not exactly "small". Janet Evans is a lot smaller and I get dizzy watching her go.

My pool and OWS stroke is pretty much the same if the OWS is fairly calm conditions.  It really depends on what the conditions are.  Consistent rolling waves would probably be a regular rate.  If it was choppy random stuff, I'd have an increased rate.

I am such a novice to all this training stuff. I have no idea if my OWS rate and pool rate compare.

I will be doing the SS workouts when I can get to the pool in a couple of weeks. I want to work this as a "program" so I can measure the changes. Until then, this weekend I am going to start the tubing parts of each workout..

I have a metronome, but I have only used it once. When I am trying to work on form, it messes with me trying to pay attention to too many things at one time.

Just finished the first workout.  My lats!  Oy!  I don't think it's necessarily anything about the workout per se, but just thinking about it a lot more, but man. 

Workout 1-1 thoughts:  The 12 50s (4 set of 1 easy, 1 med, 1 hard) were each about 2 seconds apart; 42, 40, 38 respectively. I'm going to need to pull the stroke counts and rates off my Garmin when I get home.  I liked doing the sculling drill and then doing the building hundreds.  I thought that really helped with the feel.  The kick sets were hard and made me realize I am probably not doing enough of that; my hip flexors were burning at the end of those--is that weird/wrong?  I didn't do the tubing part of the workout, as I don't have any tubing yet.  Hoping to go to a place tonight where I can try the different resistence levels.

Also, ran into my coach friend at the pool again today and we discussed some of the questions I had from the clinic.  After talking with her, I feel like things aren't that disparate.  Still more riding/gliding than Sheila and others seem to recommend, but i'm gonna kinda hang where I am right now (which is pretty slow stroke rate wise), as I can't imagine much good coming from me speeding things up yet.  Strength just doesn't seem to be there.

Hope you have all have a great weekend!

All I really know on the hip flexors is that mine used to get sore on kick sets, but with the increased work the past month or so they don't anymore. I would also get sore on the front area of the ankle but that's a lot better now too.

The stroke rates brought up by various people has been kind of confusing to me in how someone new should incorporate that. I have a 6'4" wingspan, so had no idea how I was supposed to both extend out into a big strong catch and keep up that stroke rate without dying from the effort. I've focused more on establishing a strong catch while keeping a pulling action from one arm or the other going, ie. no gliding. I have to really short-arm the stroke to make it around in time, and that just didn't seem right. Especially without the conditioning for it. Stroke rate has definitely gone up now that speed & conditioning have improved, but not sure how else I should have done it in the first place.

Re kick sets--yeah, that's exactly where I feel it too, thought he ankle thing is definitely getting better.  Good to know i can look forward to the hip flexors  chilling out eventually too.  Thanks Ben.

Re stroke rates--so much with swimming is interconnected--I mean, it kinda all is, right?  To get to one thing, you have to get other things in place, and then when you get those things in place, you can build a little more in other areas.  I think that's why the gains seen in swimming sometimes aren't linear, but rather jumps.  Having the increased strength to hold the high elbow and get a good catch, can help improve the connection to the core, which can improve your timing, and body position, and then you can bump up your rate, etc.  Ahh, when it's good, it's so good, and when it's bad, it really can fall apart.  

One thing I was reminded of yesterday during cool down is that often I feel like swimming at slower paces is sometimes more difficult than my medium-hard speed. I don't know why that is but I wonder if anyone else experiences this, and if you have any insight or tips.

ERGGG!!! I was just reading in the workouts package SOMEWHERE about not worrying about decreasing stroke count, or increasing speed until you have gotten the "muscle memory" of the high elbow catch and the feel for the water down. To concentrate on those and don't allow frustration to creep in (my words). I'll look for where she talks about this. I just can't find it now.

Okay, I am officially 'coming out" now. I have to admit I have no experience with paces. I swim, sometimes faster, sometimes slower, but I have never even tried to work on pace. (hanging head). I do laps focusing on form and distance and am just now starting to graduate to an actual "workout'. Okay, I am out.

Print them out on with really Big Font on plain white paper then take clear packing tape the wide stuff over it on both sides, take a scissors and trim off all but a quarter to half inch on each side. 

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by msteiner

Originally posted by switch

Those pics!

I've stared and stared at those pics before, but it never feels like my catch goes like that.  

Lol.   Me too!

So today I did 25 repeat 100s with

Things that seem to be helping:

Thinking about keeping an open armpit for as long as possible and thinking about what the arrows would look like coming off my arm in the catch (dorky!)

Saying, Rainman style, "over the barrel", every single catch                                                                                                                                                                                 

Finding the balance that creates the right amount of tone--not tension.  Still really working on this.  I can only have it right (or what I think is right) for about 25yds at a time.

Does anybody  have any good tips for thinking about the right amount of tone? Right now, when I get "over the barrel" I feel myself kind of tense up to connect the core/hip drive, but then relax a bit.  However, I read somewhere that "good" swimmers are constantly moving from one hip rotation to the next, and if that is true, I shouldn't be relaxing as much as I am between catches.  Thoughts?

 

I swim with some really fast people at our pool, one took several first's in the free and back stroke races at Masters Nationals this year another 3rd or 4th in Masters Long course, one of the things I've notice with these guys, from above the water they look like they are literally loafing most of the time, very relaxed and "slow" from the point they stop their pull through the recovery, then when the recovery is complete or very close to complete the other arm (looking at them from under the water) begins this violent explosion of a catch and literally rockets their body forward. It's my opinion that there is a period where neither arm is actively propelling the body but it is pretty short and you should be "relaxed" and not tensed up during the recovery or at least that part of your body that is in the recovery phase. 

Switch, something that you said earlier and got me to thinking about is how going slower can feel like it takes more effort than going faster. Got me to wondering if it's because when going slower the balance may be more important than when you are going faster? The faster you move in the water the more water coming off of your chest pushing your legs up into a better position and causing less drag than when you are going slower and the legs are down a little lower? 

Something that I think has been helpful for my balance in swimming has been snorkeling and scuba diving, when you are snorkeling, floating on top of the water seems to come natural, I think it's because one has a natural tendency to push the top part of your body down to be a able to see the critters better?

I've seen similar with the easy looking recovery and (deceptively) strong pulling underneath. Coach is up there at nationals too and doesn't look like she's working that hard, but she goes. Some of the club kids will look like that too. One looked like he was doing a warm-up, but was coming in on :55-56 for 100's.

I've felt that at times too. Think it's a timing thing. I get used to going faster and then trying to go slower changes the timing & feel. Some of it could be us being more psyched up to do the faster swimming. Then the easier doesn't seem as easy with the mental relaxation. On the bike my easier rides don't necessarily feel much easier than the harder days. I have heard about the faster speed possibly lifting and helping body position some, but not sure if that's entirely it.

The good news about outting yourself with this is if you work on it, you will most likely see improvements rather quickly, and that is a pretty good motivator.  I'm getting excited to see what happens when you can get back in the pool :)

When I ran into my coach friend at the pool last time, she asked me to "stand how you swim".  I was confused, but stood on the deck like I thought I swam.  She said I was way too up and down, and then proceeded to show me much more of a ski jumpers position.  She also had me put my hand just below my sternum and try to control moving my abdomen in and out just below the sternum--not lower.  She said, if I can "get" these two things that will greatly help my body position.  It sounds an awful lot like what you're saying Vegas.  I'll try to work on that today :)

How does that work?

But I thought long, continuous swims were a waste of time?

:)

I'll try anything once.  I won't be someone competing in USMS for highest yardage, but it would be cool to do it once a year and see if I can improve over time.

I would be up for that. But it will have to be later in January for me. 

 No matter what anyone says, long continuous swims are what we DO in triathlon. Training for them every once in a while just makes sense to me.