should there be a universal time limit for marathons? (Page 8)

Yes of course.

Mark. Why do you insist on debating your opinion of my opinion, instead of just my opinion? I’d love to accommodate you, but your spin on my opinions only seems to be producing off subject analogies that are not in my premise. I really don’t feel qualified to defend these inferences you erroneously produce from my statements since I didn’t make them.

That being said, I fully understand that your traffic ticket and other analogies are an adequate analogy in general for an arbitrary restriction that negatively impacts people. But that is exactly what misses my point. How many ways can I continue to explain this? Try to think of a restriction being put on some “thing”. That “thing” is so important that similar restrictions would be wholly inappropriate to any other “thing”, no matter how similar some people thought it might be to the highly restricted and very important “thing”. What “thing” would that be? I’m saying that, in my opinion, the marathon is such a “thing”. Now, without putting any spin on that, can you see the narrowness behind the premise of my 5 hour limit? If you don’t see it, then I have failed you and I am sorry for that. If you want to take an opposing position to my premise then debate me on whether the marathon is indeed such an important event. Now before you start accusing me of calling the marathon an elite event only for the elite, remember that the limit is 5 hours. Hardly elite. And please don’t accuse me of thinking of the marathon as sacred. That’s a little too powerful. It doesn’t have to be scared to be important. One more request; I think we have beaten the how-could-you-be-so-heartless-as-to-exclude-so-many-people-who-should-have-the-right-to-run-the-marathon angle to death. I’ve addressed that one already.

As to your other comments; you say that my 5 hour cut off continues to be an arbitrary number. Yes, I’ve even called it arbitrary. But first and foremost it is merely an opinion, not a call to arms. There is no factual data to support it, just my own supporting opinions. If you want you can go back and re-read my previous post to get the complete text on the subject. But on the topic of presenting facts, the original question posted by Chirunner134 was, “Should there be a universal limit for marathons?”, not “Prove that there should be a universal time limit for marathons”. If you really need facts to be convienced, then I have 2 problems. One is that I don’t have or see any need for facts to support an opinion and second, I don’t really care if you support my opinion. But perhaps you can use facts to convince me to change my opinion.

Your statement, ” In one of your prior posts you stated "Par for a marathon is 3 hours, so 5 allows for an awful lot of duffers. After that... cut 'em off" and when asked why 3 hours is par your reply was a "It just is. Trust me on this. Now put your shoes on and go out for a run" Where did you come up with this statistic?” Mark, I have to ask if you read the post this responded to. If you did, you would hopefully be able to recognize a flippant response to a flippant post. Don’t get distracted and take it too seriously. The real meat here is basically that my opinion is that the marathon deserves to have a specific time limit. Your overview of the stats is interesting though, but your comment, “How would cutting out such a significant number of participatnts could be considered a "positive developement" (again, your words not mine) for the marathon?” again miss-reads my statement. I said that the “positive development” would be the faster times people could be motivated to achieve. Faster times are a positive development over just finishing, aren’t they? Of course I see your point that for those who were cut off, it would not be a positive development for them in that particular race. It just wasn’t the subject my statement was addressing. But in regards to that group that gets cut off, I did express some reservation about the 5 hour limit when it effects those that can’t possibly achieve that level of ability.

Your statement, “Who are you to state that people who take longer than five hours are taking the event lightly or "only motivated to finish"? First of all, I am just someone giving an opinion in response to a question. I wasn’t aware of the need to qualify myself, but you can go back and re-read my posts to see how I have already disclosed my lack of conflict of interest here. As to the rest of your miss-statement, you say it as though I think everyone finishing over 5 hours is taking the event lightly. I have previously put forth that I do not have that view. Just as I have already explained my opinion on those that I do think this of. Ditto for your entire last paragraph. I have already addressed the questions you raise here too.

On a lighter note, congratulations on finishing your first marathon. Tell me, what experience did you gain that will make you faster next time.

Patrick,
See PM for possible explanation.

Mark

As the guy who has called for the now infamous 5 hour cut off, I just wanted to remind you that I have previously stated that I do not run marathons. So your inference that I want a cut off time as long as it’s slower than what I can do, can’t possibly apply to me. My opinion is not tainted with any such conflict of interest.

 

 

Not to debate, but rather to clarify: as someone who has never run one, who doesn't "run marathons,"  what is it in your mind that qualifies a marathon as that "thing" that is very important and needs to be highly restricted?

 

Edited by the bear 2006-10-30 4:25 PM

For my next thread I am going to start the lastest infamous thread. Should there be a set distance for a spirit tris and if so what is it?

kinda off Topic but still related what you you guys think about a person finishing a spirit tri in 5 hours? should they been pulled off the course long before? if a person does a spirit tri in 5 hours is that a great thing that they were able to finish? does it matter if there t1 and t2 splits were 1:00:00 each?

I have already addressed this. It's one of the early posts.

I'm out.

Where? I see where you call it an elite and important event, but not why. Seems this classification is just as arbitrary as your time limit.

Edited by the bear 2006-10-30 4:40 PM

I don't know why I would care. I guess I would wonder "where's the fun?" for the person who took 3 hours longer to finish than most of the other BOP-ers and spent two hours in transition doing who-knows-what, but if that's how they chose to spend their day and the RD and organizers didn't care, I can't see why I would even notice, much less care.

I understand where duggar1 is coming from. I watched the start of the Marine Corps Marathon yesterday, and the race announcer was pleading for the racers at the end of the second wave to actually run as they needed to clear the course in order to start the 10K race. I remember thinking, WTF? That course definitely has a cut-off (I don't know what it is) and they sweep the course. If you aren't at a certain point at a certain time, you have to get on the bus.

I've never run a marathon and I'm not sure I ever will. I personally wouldn't want to show up to the start if I didn't think I could do it in under 4:30. Why? Because running longer than 4:30 sounds like a lot less fun than a sub-4:30. That is just me. I respect all of you who actually train for longer distances and for completing your marathons. Well done!

So why 4:30? Wouldn't running longer than three hours sound like a lot less fun than a sub-three?

I my mind, running slower than I am capable is the only thing that sounds like less fun. What other people are doing, or arbitratry time limits, do not matter to me at all.

Edited by the bear 2006-10-30 4:46 PM

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it took me over 3 hours for my first tri jsut I honestly thought it would be alot less and I probably should have stopped. They had an Oly at the same time so its not like I was holding anyone up so who really cares in that stituation. not like anyone would know I was doing the spirit at that time anyways. Since I was still on the bike when DSFL was finis. It would be different if I got off the bike and I was going to start the run and I was the only one out there and all the other racers went home. That is my reason I always want to min DFSL because I never want to keep anyone out there waiting for me. Espcially if I go over a cut off time and they are being nice by letting me finish.

Alot you can do in transition for an hour you can have a picknick. watch tv. play cards. I guess when I see a 14 hour marathon finishing time I have to wonder what did they do out there for that long. I want to sign up for the race and see it for myself. I just do not beleive it. I think if were in transitation for an hour just kinda hanging out you are being disrespectful to those who train hard for the race, those who help out at the race, and even to yourself for talking something so lightly. Same if you stopped for lunch and dinner during a marathon. Its not a hike but a race.

if they leigitamtely takes them that long because of whatever reason I have no problem. I think to me its a respect issue more than some cut off time.

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Bear, my 4:30 time is loosely extrapolated from the running calculator. Hey, I'd love to run a 3 hour marathon, but that time isn't close to realistic!

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well I ran my last 2 marathons slower than I know I can run if I was healthy. I knew I could do it in the 6:30 finishing time limit with my injury so I did it. For me it was about getting the races under my belt then doing well. Not all marathons about running wide open. Some are jsut for the fun of the race. Honestly I would like to finish chicago in about 5:30 having slowed down just to enjoy the race and the fans who came out. That means I need to speed up first. . Maybe that is what Honolulu is about. walking around looking at the beauty of the island and getting a medal for it. Most of the slowest times come from there. LA well I be too afraid of getting killed if I fell behind street reopenings. It is not beautiful either I bet.

My mistake, although I did allude to my reasoning that the marathon deserves special treatment in earlier posts, it was better articulated later on. I said,

“My contention is that the marathon is an important symbol with a history and traditions. People are drawn to it because of that. The large number of participants in any marathon is the proof that the marathon is something far more than just an athletic contest.”

I realize many don’t subscribe to my opinion and that is fine. But if the marathon is not important, why do so many people participate in them? Why is there so much angst over a 5 hour limit. Why do you (or anyone) need to run a marathon? I suspect that the answers to these questions prove that the marathon is very important. The next question might need to be, is it important enough to have a time limit on finishers beyond what race directors deem necessary for logistics, and if so is the bar too high at 5 hours?

sorry spokes but my tri was a spirit tri . Yep I suck bigtime. I did not train expect for running and I screwed up but hey I did it because a girl I like did one earlier and I wanted to be cool just like her.

I do agree duggar MArathon is important to runners like the IM is important to Triathletes. It has become a Symbol of greatest or something. We seem to agree but I do think your bar is set too high. Then again I suggest run a marathon and then judge for yourself.