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2011-10-19 5:21 PM

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Elite
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Denver
Subject: Need some advice on Second Chances...
I'd like to pick the collective COJ brain if I may.... I'm pondering an opportunity that has become available, and would like some outside opinions.


A little back story, back in '05, I started a company that specialized in building whitewater kayak paddles out of wood. We were unique in our method of manufacture, and utilized a few materials that that made our paddles bombproof and light.

It was, in some regards, fairly successful, our customers were really happy with the product, and we got some positive reviews in a few major publications.

However, being as young as I was, I didn't grasp the concept of balancing work and home life, and got wrapped up in the business and neglected pretty much anything else. I'm convinced this ultimately led to my divorce. Shortly after, the economy tanked and we saw sales bottom out. I walked away from the business about $10K in debt and moved on. My older brother was a business partner and invested about $7K, losing it all.

My brother and I have a great relationship, and he has absolutely no hard feelings about it all, as he knew the high risk involved. The business ended three years ago.


Flash forward to three weeks ago, my brother comes out to CO for a visit, and almost immediately brings the paddles up. He's 100% convinced that I can be successful if I were to try again.

I admitted that I'd been thinking about it for a year, and have come up with a design/materials that is completely different, and something that no one else is doing right now. It'd cost about $1000 to build and test prototypes, etc.

He's offering to put up the $$ to get the prototypes built, as well as the money needed to run the business for a year.




At first I was really stoked and ready to move forward full bore, but now I'm having second thoughts. Honestly, I'm afraid of another failure. I don't want to get caught up in it again, only to lose everything again.

Currently, I'm standing at just walking away from it and playing it safe.


What do you guys think? Is there something I'm missing? Let me know if I left anything out....


2011-10-20 4:55 AM
in reply to: #3730701

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Champion
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Checkin' out the podium girls
Subject: RE: Need some advice on Second Chances...
I admire your guts with even the first chance and to think about it again. I've got an opportunity to try a small business, but keep playing it safe and backing away. Maybe I need to look at mine again.

The key to any business (and the reason I back away) is financial. You could be selling custom paddles, draperies, a restaurant or running an airline. It's about the balance sheet. You need to craft a fundamental business plan and take a cold hard look at start up costs, resources, exit scenarios (other than going broke in the endeavor), competition, SWOT (strengths, weaknesses, opportunity, threats) and a strategic 5-10 year plan. Only by decouling your emotional side of loving and being good with kayak paddles can you make sense of the business opportunity.

Mine is biotech based and, frankly, the threat from China makes it too difficult to be competetive because my costs would be far too high.
2011-10-20 6:44 AM
in reply to: #3730701

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Master
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White Oak, Texas
Subject: RE: Need some advice on Second Chances...
I have owned 2 small SCUBA shops both failed one because my partners and I were not on the same page with the direction of the shop and the second because I opened in a market that would not support it and knew it going in.  What has changed that makes you believe you will succeed now?  Will the economy changed? Has the sport grown? Are you and your brother both willing to put in all the work needed to succeed?  I would never tell someone not to go for it but make sure you have the drive and open path to take off on.  Lastly you and your brother need to be 100% on the same page failing once was a threat to your relationship be sure it can handle both sucess and failure before a second attempt.
2011-10-20 7:57 AM
in reply to: #3730701

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Elite
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Oliver, BC, "Wine Capital of Canada"
Subject: RE: Need some advice on Second Chances...

I'm a risk taker and always ask myself, "what's the worst that can happen" when deciding to move forward on an idea. If you play it safe, you'll always ask yourself "what if"

I've always felt that success or fail, the learning experience has more value than wondering what might have.

2011-10-20 8:10 AM
in reply to: #3730701

Expert
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Subject: RE: Need some advice on Second Chances...
Without seeing your business plan it's difficult to advise, but as business losses go, you really didn't lose a lot of money last time. Your start up costs are cheap and probably way underestimated, but it doesn't seem like there's a tremendous amount of downside. Don't know what the upside is (sales volume, profitability, etc.). Playing it safe is ok if it doesn't restrict your decision making (meaning you're paralyzed by fear and can't make the tough decisions). Don't discount what you learned from your last venture, that's the leverage that could make this next one a big success!

2011-10-20 8:50 AM
in reply to: #3730701

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Pro
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Parker, CO
Subject: RE: Need some advice on Second Chances...

I owned a small business several years ago and I know how consuming it can be.  I eventually sold the business...at a loss.  There are lots of opportunities for entrepreneurs but it takes much more than a good product. Because you have done this before, I'm sure there are some things you want to do differently.  One thing that stands out from your post is that the economy tanked in 2005 thats when your previous business went south.  I don't see the economy any better today than in 2005. In fact, I see it as being worse.  That said, seems that people that are employed and have hobbies don't have much of a problem using their cash for their hobbies...just look at triathlon.  Anyway, I'm sure you have thought about much of the downside.  On the upside...sounds like start-up costs are minimal, I believe this is something you have a passion for, you are young and single. I think if it was something I really had a passion for I would move forward.  However, not before drafting a solid business plan and making the necessary contacts to help you sell your product.

Good luck Jon!



2011-10-20 8:51 AM
in reply to: #3730701

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2011-10-20 9:05 AM
in reply to: #3730701

Buttercup
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Subject: RE: Need some advice on Second Chances...

From our failures, we learn things we could never learn watching another or from books. You have acquired a richness of knowledge. My advice is don't squander it.

The question you have to ask yourself is "What do I have to lose?" If you don't have mouths to feed, other than your own, or carrying a debt load, I say take the plunge.  You had a good product, you believed in your product - that's more than many businesses can say. Don't let the economic catastrophe of '08 hold you back. 

As far as consumer goods go, the recreation industry is doing pretty good. Health and wellness is trendy. It would be a good idea to do some market research, as well. Additionally, call your previous customers and ask for their insights on the health of the industry and assessment of how their businesses are doing.

2011-10-20 9:05 AM
in reply to: #3730701

Master
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Denver
Subject: RE: Need some advice on Second Chances...
How much are the paddles if you decide to start up again?  I've been looking for one....
2011-10-20 12:26 PM
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2011-10-20 12:36 PM
in reply to: #3730701

Champion
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SRQ, FL
Subject: RE: Need some advice on Second Chances...

All good advice so far.  You need to have a business plan and be willing to invest some money.  But if everything checks out, go for it.  But I will tell you this.  Own 51% or nothing. 



2011-10-20 12:53 PM
in reply to: #3730701

Expert
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Boise, ID
Subject: RE: Need some advice on Second Chances...

 

I would take a long look at why it failed the first time and then determine if it was within your power to prevent the failure. If you can learn from the last time you will have better chances this time.

Sounds pretty cool to me, I'd go for it.

2011-10-20 4:22 PM
in reply to: #3730701

Elite
2793
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Denver
Subject: RE: Need some advice on Second Chances...
Thanks for the advice everyone! It is much, much appreciated, and if others have anything to chime in, please do so.


Business plan wise, we are working on that right now, and it is specifically addressing several of the shortcomings, or lessons learned, from the previous venture. The relationship my brother and I have is rock solid, and can withstand another failure without batting an eye.


What have I got to lose? I guess that's really what I'm not sure about. And why I am being hesitant about giving it another go. I've lived my life with a "never know til you try" mindset, and seen it blow up in my face several times. But, I guess that's life, eh? If Edison gave up at this point, we might still be relying on candles...


The market for paddles, from what I've seen so far, is better than it was in 2005-2008. There are fewer companies now, but they are all doing well (this is from industry insider impressions, not true hard data, though.)


Drew, you're a whitewater paddler? If so, I might have you demo the prototypes and see what you think. We're thinking the MSRP is going to be around $320.


Let me know if anyone has any more questions! Much appreciated...


2011-10-20 4:30 PM
in reply to: #3732325

Iron Donkey
38643
50005000500050005000500050002000100050010025
, Wisconsin
Subject: RE: Need some advice on Second Chances...

As someone else suggested, identify WHAT was, or what were (plural), that caused the downfall, i.e. Marketing, expansion, time, investments, etc.

It sounds like a sound business opportunity, and you have quite a bit of knowledge and practice with it.

Would you be willing to invest in your own business by seeing if there is a Small Business startup education class that could help you organize, plan, etc. the business better?

Good luck, Jon!  I do see success with this - it's how much, how fast, and how much time it will take.

2011-10-20 4:45 PM
in reply to: #3730701

Master
2083
2000252525
Houston, TX
Subject: RE: Need some advice on Second Chances...

wavedog - 2011-10-19 5:21 PM I'd like to pick the collective COJ brain if I may.... I'm pondering an opportunity that has become available, and would like some outside opinions. A little back story, back in '05, I started a company that specialized in building whitewater kayak paddles out of wood. We were unique in our method of manufacture, and utilized a few materials that that made our paddles bombproof and light. It was, in some regards, fairly successful, our customers were really happy with the product, and we got some positive reviews in a few major publications. However, being as young as I was, I didn't grasp the concept of balancing work and home life, and got wrapped up in the business and neglected pretty much anything else. I'm convinced this ultimately led to my divorce. Shortly after, the economy tanked and we saw sales bottom out. I walked away from the business about $10K in debt and moved on. My older brother was a business partner and invested about $7K, losing it all. My brother and I have a great relationship, and he has absolutely no hard feelings about it all, as he knew the high risk involved. The business ended three years ago. Flash forward to three weeks ago, my brother comes out to CO for a visit, and almost immediately brings the paddles up. He's 100% convinced that I can be successful if I were to try again. I admitted that I'd been thinking about it for a year, and have come up with a design/materials that is completely different, and something that no one else is doing right now. It'd cost about $1000 to build and test prototypes, etc. He's offering to put up the $$ to get the prototypes built, as well as the money needed to run the business for a year. At first I was really stoked and ready to move forward full bore, but now I'm having second thoughts. Honestly, I'm afraid of another failure. I don't want to get caught up in it again, only to lose everything again. Currently, I'm standing at just walking away from it and playing it safe. What do you guys think? Is there something I'm missing? Let me know if I left anything out....

 

Don't do the same thing twice.  You haven't given enough detail what caused the failure the first time or if you've learned anything from it, But if you are going to do basically the same thing again, but with a slightly different design, I'd say don't do it.  I am not necessarily referring to the product.  I am referring to the business model, the marketing, the budget, the growth strategy, the sourcing, the product, the design, etc.......  Whatever you did the first time didn't work.  Don't do it again.

 

That being said, I also say, never give up, never quite trying, never settle.  If you know what you'd do differently, then go for it.  If you don't, then figure that out first.  If you think you have an idea that no one else has thought of, you're other option is to patent the design and sell it to a manufacturer for the royalties.  that's a lot less work.  I would favor doing it yourself though.  Good luck man!

2011-10-21 9:55 AM
in reply to: #3732325

Master
4101
20002000100
Denver
Subject: RE: Need some advice on Second Chances...

wavedog - 2011-10-20 3:22 PM Thanks for the advice everyone! It is much, much appreciated, and if others have anything to chime in, please do so. Business plan wise, we are working on that right now, and it is specifically addressing several of the shortcomings, or lessons learned, from the previous venture. The relationship my brother and I have is rock solid, and can withstand another failure without batting an eye. What have I got to lose? I guess that's really what I'm not sure about. And why I am being hesitant about giving it another go. I've lived my life with a "never know til you try" mindset, and seen it blow up in my face several times. But, I guess that's life, eh? If Edison gave up at this point, we might still be relying on candles... The market for paddles, from what I've seen so far, is better than it was in 2005-2008. There are fewer companies now, but they are all doing well (this is from industry insider impressions, not true hard data, though.) Drew, you're a whitewater paddler? If so, I might have you demo the prototypes and see what you think. We're thinking the MSRP is going to be around $320. Let me know if anyone has any more questions! Much appreciated...

I used to be.  Haven't paddled in about ten years, but I've been looking at getting back into it now that I have a boat out here.  I was just in Confluence Kayaks last saturday having a look around...  I'm probably not good enough of a paddler to be a good tester for your purposes, although I know some people who are if you need.  But I am in the market for a paddle so I might get in touch in the spring - my old paddle was wood and even though it was a bit heavier they have a great feel to them.



2011-10-21 10:48 AM
in reply to: #3730701

Veteran
168
1002525
St. Louis
Subject: RE: Need some advice on Second Chances...

I have had a very similar experience to yours except in our case the numbers were much larger.  We came within an inch of losing everything, and I mean everything.  From my perspective I look at what we learned and can see how much better we could run things if we were to try it again.  But I agree 200% with the previous poster that asked "what are you going to do differently?".  Don't go into this believing you will be successful simply because the environment is better, or because your product will be slightly improved. 

What are you going to change on the business side to improve your odds?  Can you get commitments from a few stores or better an online retailer to carry your paddles?  Even if you sell to them at cost to get that done it would be worth it to get your product into the hands of customers.  Maybe spend some time and effort looking at other products you could make with this process.  Be creative and see what else you can make.  Having more than one product would dramatically improve the landscape, and maybe make it possible for some behemoth to come buy you out just to own the process.

It's great that you could try this again for so little money, but don't be fooled into believing that the only thing at risk is $1000 that your brother is willing to lose.  You are risking much more than that both in money and also in time, energy, and stress.  Without changing the business plan I wouldn't do it.  There is more to life than money, as you well know.  And there is also something to be said for jumping off the cliff, I've done it three times and crashed twice.  But it worked once.  Just be smart about what risks you are taking and how you are going to address them.  And THEN jump off the cliff.  Good luck to you, I hope it works and you make a fortune.

2011-10-21 11:10 AM
in reply to: #3730701

Expert
1146
100010025
Johns Creek, Georgia
Subject: RE: Need some advice on Second Chances...

From my banking background standpoint, 18+ years, I second what several folks have said, develop a business plan, examine why it failed before.  Look at alternative sales chains.  As well, look at SBA loans.  To go even further there is a push for expoting and all kinds of help including financial incentives.  Even EBAY as a sales chain.

As far as second chances, yeah, I beleive in that!

2011-10-21 3:40 PM
in reply to: #3730701

Veteran
1900
1000500100100100100
Southampton, Ontario
Subject: RE: Need some advice on Second Chances...
Whitewater still seems very down from what it was in early 2000's. It seems that the new "boom" is stand up paddle boarding. I believe its more of an attempt of the industry to create a new market and not really viable long term but thats just me. Alot of boat manufacturers have been bought and sold and a few have branched out into sea kayaks, rec boats etc. I guess the point of my post is to make as wide a product portfolio as (or if) possible OR just get Eric Jackson to use your paddles
2011-10-22 1:50 AM
in reply to: #3730701

Master
1903
1000500100100100100
Portland, Oregon
Subject: RE: Need some advice on Second Chances...

A couple of thoughts:

First, you mention I don't want to lose it all again. That's where, as others said, your biz plan comes in. You are in charge of your exit strategy. When you cut loose should be in the biz plan. Benchmarks for sales levels, production, etc. All in there. Obviously you can change this as you go, but when to pull the plug should be considered before you start.

Second, SCORE - they are a great resource. Stands for Service Core of Retired Executives. You may have a group in your area. They are essentially mentor who have 'been there done that' and can help with pretty much anything: marketing strategies, production ideas, whatever you need, they match you up with someone who can help. With your background of being there too, being able to bounce ideas off an objective listener might be really helpful.

Last, like someone else mentioned, you really need to do a hard post-mortem on the last go-round and figure out what should be different and what was working and what has changed since then.

I would personally feel strongly inclined to go for it. Rarely do you get another chance to "do it right" like this. Best of luck!

2011-10-23 3:13 PM
in reply to: #3733662

Elite
2793
2000500100100252525
Denver
Subject: RE: Need some advice on Second Chances...
DaveL - 2011-10-21 2:40 PM

Whitewater still seems very down from what it was in early 2000's. It seems that the new "boom" is stand up paddle boarding. I believe its more of an attempt of the industry to create a new market and not really viable long term but thats just me. Alot of boat manufacturers have been bought and sold and a few have branched out into sea kayaks, rec boats etc. I guess the point of my post is to make as wide a product portfolio as (or if) possible OR just get Eric Jackson to use your paddles



Well, seeing as I used to work for EJ, I know how incredibly tough it is to get him to use anyone's products. And seeing as Jackson Kayak just picked up Lightning Paddles, it will be even tougher...




Thanks again everyone for the input. As I said before, we've completely re-vamped the business plan, and it looks almost nothing like the old one, in several different ways. Much more streamlined, less focused on fast growth, more focused on quality production. The goal is to be sustainable and manageable.


I just got off the phone with my brother, and I think we're going to go for it, but the timeline depends mainly on our ability to get materials and time for prototyping, and to explore more options on getting a small amount of material at a better price.


2011-10-23 9:39 PM
in reply to: #3730701

Iron Donkey
38643
50005000500050005000500050002000100050010025
, Wisconsin
Subject: RE: Need some advice on Second Chances...
Good luck, Jon!
2011-10-24 5:22 AM
in reply to: #3730701

Champion
34263
500050005000500050005000200020001001002525
Chicago
Subject: RE: Need some advice on Second Chances...
Go for it ... be sure to capitalize on the Olympics next year when whitewater kayaking will no doubt be in front of millions of people on TV for a couple weeks straight.
2011-10-24 8:35 AM
in reply to: #3735062

Expert
1215
1000100100
Austin, TX
Subject: RE: Need some advice on Second Chances...

 "Much more streamlined, less focused on fast growth, more focused on quality production"

Focus on profit, not growth.  I think the businesses that are in it for the long haul focus on profit.

With my business, I do not care about volume.  I know my break even and how much I want to make.

My business is completing its 3rd year.  My profit margin as a percentage has increased year over year.  I have become more focused on the markets I want to be in.

It sounds like you are now considering the same thing by going away from how fast you can grow.

Now you need to find where the quality customer is versus the discount customer.

Fortunately for me I am not in retail and finding my customers is easier.  My wife owns a bridal shop and it is a struggle.

2011-10-24 9:30 AM
in reply to: #3730701

Veteran
168
1002525
St. Louis
Subject: RE: Need some advice on Second Chances...

Best of luck to you!  I hope you hit it big, remember us mud suckers when you're flying in your jet someday!

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