Long run for 5:00 IM mary??

Master

1641

Cambridge, MA

Subject: RE: Long run for 5:00 IM mary??

I wonder if Suzanne got a run plan that was very different from the others discussed here?

This has been a really interesting thread. I'm a little surprised at how little running is needed after the base is there for biking and swimming, so I'll have to read more about that. Wish I could build that into my HIM training (coming up on #3) this year. But really, for that HIM distance I think a lot of running is still needed.

Having only run one marathon, I still have a lot to learn about that distance.

Cheers, -Sunny

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Master

2381

Frisco, Texas

Subject: RE: Long run for 5:00 IM mary??

Interesting thread. Has anyone tried 2 running workouts in one day. For example, a 2.5 hour run in the morning and a 30 minute run in the evening or some combination that yeilds 3 hours. I've seen these written about in some of my reading, but haven't seen these type of runs in training plans. Any benefit to 2 runs in a day?

TJ

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Subject: RE: Long run for 5:00 IM mary??

zia_cyclist - 2008-02-14 4:20 PM

Interesting thread. Has anyone tried 2 running workouts in one day. For example, a 2.5 hour run in the morning and a 30 minute run in the evening or some combination that yeilds 3 hours. I've seen these written about in some of my reading, but haven't seen these type of runs in training plans. Any benefit to 2 runs in a day?

TJ

There's another thread on this somewhere. But yes, I've been told that this is what I should do IF I wanted a 3 hour run.

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Cycling Guru

15134

Fulton, MD

Subject: RE: Long run for 5:00 IM mary??

There's a short 2x day thread in Tri Talk where it was touched on.

Just remember that you cannot break a long run (say a 20 miler) into two sessions and get the same physiological benefit and adaptations. 2x days are a good way to bump up your running volume and allow for more recovery efforts, but they are not really as "necessary" if you are not already pushing 50+ mile weeks.

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Pro

3883

Woodstock,GA

Subject: RE: Long run for 5:00 IM mary??

I would disagree with you there Rick. I had a long talk with Michellie Jones last year after the IronGirl event here in Atlanta, and she has a history of running injuries so her coach had her doing split runs in order to get the mileage in without pounding her body too much. I completely agree with this approach regarding athletes with a history of ITBS or knee pain (or any other "over use" type of injury) that is a result of high run volume.

Her example of a split day was an interval or higher intensity workout in the AM, and a longer base type of run in the PM. That way you are accomplishing several things 1) a good quality workout on fresh legs 2) a base run on fatigued legs (simulating a post ride feel), 3) increasing the frequency of running without as much exposure to injury.

Personally if I ever do another IM, I will use the split running technique since my legs tend to rebel after about 15 miles in one session.

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Master

2571

Tiger's Den

Subject: RE: Long run for 5:00 IM mary??

Actually I did talk to my coach about this and she said I would do 2-3 runs in the 22-23 mile range.

Typically, she said, I would do 80% of the run at a very ez pace, and 20% or so at a faster pace. She is big on doing like a 8 mile warm up, 5 miles at 2 min hard, 2 min ez, and then 8 miles ez pace/cool down.

The whole thing would not be done at an ez pace unless I was ~~injured~~ fending off an injury. But not too much at a hard pace.

She said the psychological benefit from running that long when already tired would help me feel more confident for the race. However, I will either have the day off or an ez swim the next day to help aid with recovery.

Edited to add that my biggest run week will probably be in the 35-40 mile range.

Edited by SuzanneS 2008-02-15 9:59 AM

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Coach

10487

Boston, MA

Subject: RE: Long run for 5:00 IM mary??

I am late to the party but here is my take: In general for most athletes following generic IM plans it is recommended it to limit the long run to 2:30-3 hrs for different reasons. 1^st of all a generic plan is not specific to the athlete hence it is a safe way to prescribe a plan. 2^nd for marathon training it is been suggested that the positive training adaptations diminish or can even become negative anywhere within the 2:30-3 hr mark (although IM run and marathon training are different beasts) 3^rd because run training is demanding and the IM athlete has to find a balance with another 2 sports, it can be risky to induce too much fatigue in one session jeopardizing the total training load. Last but not least, because the fitness level and training needs will greatly vary from athlete to athlete.

As some posters noted some might have the fitness level and adaptations to reach optimal results on what might seem minimum run training. For another athlete in order to reach optimal results he/she might need a greater training load hence it is quite difficult to definitively generalize.

IMO the best duration for IM will depend on each specific athlete. That been said I believe a smart approach to increase the load with less risk for injuries and without affecting the session for swim/bike is via running volume (frequency + duration) in particular during the general training phase. If you follow periodization you can define training cycles in which one sport i.e. running will be your main focus and you can spend more time getting fit at it and grow stronger. IOW, you lay down the foundation for general run training for a period of time and as you progress through the plan you will switch the focus on to biking (which represents the longest leg of the race) while at the same time you then maintain your run fitness and make some runs a bit longer to keep begin producing some specific adaptations. Later you’ll get into the specific phase in which you want will train at certain load which will specifically stress your body in a way to get you as ready as possible for the IM. In this phase is where specific IM long runs should take place and here is where you’ll have to make a training decision on what specific few sessions will better prepare you. At this point you ‘should’ be fit enough to handle a greater training loads but also that the accumulated fatigue would be near its max.

A few 2:30 hr LR might be enough to prepare an athlete while another one might benefit more from a 2:30 and/or 3+ hr run both mentally and physically. At the same time it is important to keep in mind that the athlete won’t do much of these sessions and even though by itself each one is important, in the end they are just one part of the training plan. The sum of every session is what ultimately will define your fitness.

IMO there are many athletes jumping on the IM wagon to early and this is forcing them to exercise at training loads that they are just not ready for. The strain imposed on our bodies through IM training it is significant but it becomes larger when we forced out bodies to work at a rate we are just not properly prepared for. Hence you hear some athletes basically been forced to perform monster sessions to get them ready to complete the event and while they are capable to get through those and complete an IM it might not be the best idea, but in the end everyone is free to do whatever they want

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Pro

3883

Woodstock,GA

Subject: RE: Long run for 5:00 IM mary??

amiine - 2008-02-15 11:23 AM I am late to the party but here is my take: In general for most athletes following generic IM plans it is recommended it to limit the long run to 2:30-3 hrs for different reasons. 1^st of all a generic plan is not specific to the athlete hence it is a safe way to prescribe a plan. 2^nd for marathon training it is been suggested that the positive training adaptations diminish or can even become negative anywhere within the 2:30-3 hr mark (although IM run and marathon training are different beasts) 3^rd because run training is demanding and the IM athlete has to find a balance with another 2 sports, it can be risky to induce too much fatigue in one session jeopardizing the total training load. Last but not least, because the fitness level and training needs will greatly vary from athlete to athlete.

As some posters noted some might have the fitness level and adaptations to reach optimal results on what might seem minimum run training. For another athlete in order to reach optimal results he/she might need a greater training load hence it is quite difficult to definitively generalize.

IMO the best duration for IM will depend on each specific athlete. That been said I believe a smart approach to increase the load with less risk for injuries and without affecting the session for swim/bike is via running volume (frequency + duration) in particular during the general training phase. If you follow periodization you can define training cycles in which one sport i.e. running will be your main focus and you can spend more time getting fit at it and grow stronger. IOW, you lay down the foundation for general run training for a period of time and as you progress through the plan you will switch the focus on to biking (which represents the longest leg of the race) while at the same time you then maintain your run fitness and make some runs a bit longer to keep begin producing some specific adaptations. Later you’ll get into the specific phase in which you want will train at certain load which will specifically stress your body in a way to get you as ready as possible for the IM. In this phase is where specific IM long runs should take place and here is where you’ll have to make a training decision on what specific few sessions will better prepare you. At this point you ‘should’ be fit enough to handle a greater training loads but also that the accumulated fatigue would be near its max.

A few 2:30 hr LR might be enough to prepare an athlete while another one might benefit more from a 2:30 and/or 3+ hr run both mentally and physically. At the same time it is important to keep in mind that the athlete won’t do much of these sessions and even though by itself each one is important, in the end they are just one part of the training plan. The sum of every session is what ultimately will define your fitness.

IMO there are many athletes jumping on the IM wagon to early and this is forcing them to exercise at training loads that they are just not ready for. The strain imposed on our bodies through IM training it is significant but it becomes larger when we forced out bodies to work at a rate we are just not properly prepared for. Hence you hear some athletes basically been forced to perform monster sessions to get them ready to complete the event and while they are capable to get through those and complete an IM it might not be the best idea, but in the end everyone is free to do whatever they want

I wholeheartedly agree....best post in awhile!

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Cycling Guru

15134

Fulton, MD

Subject: RE: Long run for 5:00 IM mary??

I'm not against 2x a days at all Rocket, just that you cannot give your body the same adaptations in two 10 miles runs as you would get in one 20 miler.

There are other good reasons to do 2x a days for running (overall volume and training load being that), but to do it as a substitute for long run training is not going to result in the same thing physiologically.

But we are also talking about more focused running here ...... more in line with pure marathon training than IM run training. Honestly, unless you are already cranking out some serious miles and have extra training time available I do not see many regular AG atheltes putting 2x a day runs in. I've done them for this marathon training cycle I'm on, but I'm also in the 50 - 60+ miles a week range.

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