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2009-06-18 9:20 AM
in reply to: #2224896

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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...

By running a little slower I was able to log my first 10k this week. Now I'm not fast but I am getting faster. I am finding that running more and say at 80% rather then full boar at a shorter distance is helping me. I use to have to walk to just finish a 5k and now running a 5k at a 7:XX pace feels normal. I have yet to really push my self 100% on a 5k but I will see how I do on my first race at the end of the month.



2009-06-18 9:34 AM
in reply to: #2224896

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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...

A lot of good stuff in this thread.  I'll see if I can contribute a few points.

1) Go out and get Daniels' Running Formula.  It costs less than $20 and can be found at most any bookstore.  Daniels is perhaps the premier running coach in the US over the last 40 years.  He's worked with athletes of all caliber, from HS teams through olympians.   In this book, he lays out the major components of running training.  He goes into many specifics of exactly what each run is trying to accomplish in terms of targeting different physiological systems.  Reading and understanding this book will go a long way to helping you devise your own training plan.

2) As some others have mentioned on this thread, don't bother trying to change your running form other than perhaps increasing your cadence.  The following website has a number of articles and features that discuss many training and running issues.  One is running technique.  Basically, trying to change your natural motion is not useful and puts you at greater risk of injury.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/

 

I won't re-hash what others have eloquently stated.  Good luck and run safe and fast. 

2009-06-18 9:37 AM
in reply to: #2224896


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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
"Run more" is, of course great adice. But I'd also suggest finding/sticking with some sort of plan. There are many, look for one that includes a variety of tempo, speedwork, hills, long runs. It is hard to balance when you have 2 other sports to train for, but I guess that is a choice you have to make.   I'd rec. looking at Ryan Hall's half mary plan. My H followed it with great success.

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-238-244-258-12006-0,00.html

Lauren


2009-06-18 9:42 AM
in reply to: #2224896

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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
I ran a pretty decent 10K this past weekend and when talking to the top finishers, they were amazed that I was running 70 miles...per month. They're doing that per week!

I'm not saying run 70 mpw to be really fast, but I know that in order to get faster, I'm going to have to up mileage and train smartly, incorporating long runs and speedwork into workouts. as a triathlete, it's tough to get that much mileage in b/c you have to make time for the other disciplines.

the biggest thing is that you should know that it will take time to get there. it won't happen overnight. trying to get there too soon will get you injured. take your time, train smartly, and you'll be a running machine.
2009-06-18 9:52 AM
in reply to: #2224975

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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
Aikidoman - 2009-06-17 1:51 PM
the bear - 2009-06-17 12:43 PM I'm wondering what's to be gained by comparing yourself to elite athletes? IMHO there's a significant genetic component at work as well, and no amount of training is going to get you me down to speeds comparable to the elite runners.



What is to be gained?  How about just some insite on how it 'feels' to an elite runner to run at that pace...  Maybe get a glimps on how someone else see something.

I don't have to be out to gain something except for some understanding with every question I ask or ponder about.


In your comparison with elites, did you compare their size with yours? Many of them are well less than 150 pounds and have very low body fat%. Did you compare their volume of training? Many of them run in excess of 70 miles/week, even for 5K training. It's one thing to look at the elites and be amazed at how effortless they seem to be running at fast paces. It's quite another thing to actually do what the elites do to be able to run that fast.

Without knowing your age, height, and weight, it can easily be observed fro your logs that you don't run enough to get to the speed you want. Building training volume takes time. I know for me when I started being able to average 40+ miles/week consistantly I started getting much faster in my races. I also was losing weight. Last year I averaged about 50 miles/week for the entire year and I set new PRs at every distance I raced. This year I've cut my running volume and to no surprise I've gotten slower.

For you to get from where you are - about 12 miles/week - to 40+ on a consistent basis would likely take the better part of a year to ramp up. If you've got extra weight then you need to lose it. Regardless of your height, if your body fat% is too high you're going to struggle. The elites will be less than 10%. Many top AGers may be between 10-15%. Over that and you're dealing with carrying extra weight that will cause you to be slower. BTW, these are numbers for men, women have different numbers.

Age will also play a factor in how fast you can run, but not so much in how many miles you can run in training. I'm in my 50s and can average more than 50 miles/week. I know some guys in their 60s & 70s who run as much or more.

All the above assumes a person has no underlying medical conditions or physiological abnormalities. Most of us have full lives outside of training and can't train as much as the elites. However, many of us can train far more than we do. I'm as guilty of undertraining as many.
2009-06-18 9:54 AM
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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...


2009-06-18 9:56 AM
in reply to: #2226238

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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
agarose2000 - 2009-06-18 8:48 AM

The most common misperception in running amongst amateur athletes is that "to run fast, you have to train mostly fast."

So, so wrong.

You should strive to maximimize volume, but keep the vast majority of your miles (80+%) at an easy aerobic pace, <155HR on average.

Yes, you do need one fast and hard workout per week of intervals or speedwork, and yes, you do need to suffer as hard as you can on that day, but that's it.

The total mileage component is SEVERELY underestimated by triathletes wanting to get better at running. As a pure runner, you are nowhere close to your potential if you are under 50 miles per week, and even under 70 miles per week. Of course, most triathletes will never approach 70 miles per week of running, but you need to understand that for most age groupers who can run a 10k at near 6min/mile, they are usually throwing down this type of mileage to begin with.

Unless you have great genetics (some do), volume trumps almost all in runnning. Even for 5k distances. 

I dropped my standalone 5k (and every distance including marathon) time from an already solid 22 minutes to a relatively competitive 18min over a 2 year period. The ONLY thing that worked was the volume - I was running 80 miles+ per week at peak, most of which was run at 9 min/mile pace. In contrast, the entire DECADE before that, I tried to run 25-35 mpw at close to 7min/mile, and only improved minimally after the first 6 months-8 months of serious training. 

It's ironic - running really should be the "easiest" of the 3 sports to improve - all you have to do is log the miles. There's no technique, no tricks, and no "magic training program." For real. You don't need special diet, shoes, clothes, or a bike. You can do it anywhere. You don't even need to train at high intensity - I ran at an easier pace than I've ever trained, ever, while running 80 mpw+. (It's not easy though - the volume will beat on your legs even at slow paces.) This is not unique to me either, this is the cornerstone of training methods used by all competitive distances runners from the mile to the ultramarathon.

I agree with most of your post but I would add it is not only about volume but about training load, that is volume + intensity. Yes if you manage/handle of have the time to run 50-80 mpw then go nuts because that will certainly help you run faster. However if we have twin athletes both running 50 mpw and one run half easy and half tempo/threshold while the other only runs easy then the former will be running faster than the latter because he/she is logging greater training load.

With that in mind triathlete's biggest limiter is time for training; that is we have limited time for training due to 3 sports plus work, families, social life, etc. Hence for some athletes is not realistic to devote time to increase running via volume exclusively hence running 30-35 mpw might be the best he/she can do and running all that easy would be a waste; in that case and playing with the load equation since volume is low, intensity should be a bit higher than usual. That doesn't mean VO2 max repeats at the track all the time, but it does mean running less easy and spending more time doing steady/marathon pace runs (aka tempo or z3) + threshold. Of course to get to that the athlete needs to spend some time (6-8 weeks) getting ready to handle that load and be wise about pacing, that is indeed going easy or hard when need it.

Notice I am not implying do less to get more; not at all, I am all about hard work and consistency. But for some athletes training their optimal load to achieve their potential might not be an option so you have to go with what they can do to get better even if it is far from optimal. In other words, you have to look at the athlete's needs/limiters/time for training and off of that develop the best plan of attack, there are athletes with lots of running background (or genes) that can be VERY competitive with 30-35 mpw while others might need 40-45 mpw just to achieve enough gains to become MOP.  But as I said I agree with your post in general...

Edited by JorgeM 2009-06-18 10:12 AM
2009-06-18 10:04 AM
in reply to: #2224896

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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...
I can tell you that what used to feel fast a year ago doesn't feel fast anymore.  So, yes, you will adjust. 

2009-06-18 10:21 AM
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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...

This has been a great thread. Thanks for all the great replies and links!

2009-06-18 2:18 PM
in reply to: #2226493

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Subject: RE: I don't know how to run fast...

JorgeM - 2009-06-18 8:56 AM 
Notice I am not implying do less to get more; not at all, I am all about hard work and consistency. But for some athletes training their optimal load to achieve their potential might not be an option so you have to go with what they can do to get better even if it is far from optimal. In other words, you have to look at the athlete's needs/limiters/time for training and off of that develop the best plan of attack, there are athletes with lots of running background (or genes) that can be VERY competitive with 30-35 mpw while others might need 40-45 mpw just to achieve enough gains to become MOP.  But as I said I agree with your post in general...


Yes, some people "with running backgrounds" can be competitive at 30-35 MPW, but many here do not fit that description. Many have little or no previous running experience. They don't have years of base to work with. As such, many of them would benefit from simply logging substantially more easy miles for a year or two. After they establish a solid base (30-40+ MPW consistently for 6+ months) they can work on lower mileage/higher intensity. It seems like many people want to get to step 10 without completing anything after step 1. They want to be fast without putting in all the work required to get there. The vast majority of people with no previous running experience who log less than 15 MPW simply are never going to be very fast, especially people who are carrying around some excess weight. It seems like there have been plenty of threads like this one started by people who want to be faster who simply don't run anywhere near enough. Same thing with biking.

Do the necessary work and reap the benefits, or don't do it and just dream about being fast.

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