Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP
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2010-01-06 9:50 AM |
Veteran 139 Metairie | Subject: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP I have only done one season of Tri's, all Oly or shorter (5 Races). I am trying to figure out if I am a BOP or MOP and I am curious how well I have to do to become FOP. How would you guys define these levels (average finisher percentage)? |
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2010-01-06 9:56 AM in reply to: #2597479 |
Veteran 278 Chicago, IL | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP I'm very curious, as well. Seems to be very race specific, by literal definition. I look at my goal times for my this year and with the same pace on two very flat courses, I'm expecting to finish somewhere around 128/133 in one (obviously about as BOP as you can get) and around 1000/2200 in the other. However, BOP/MOP seems to have specific meaning of some sort to some people. I see people here who say 16mph bike isn't awful, but I look at several races (like Door County) and see thta it would place you around last in the bike. The only reason I, personally, would liek to better know what FOP/BOP/MOP are estimated to be is I see on the training plans 'times are based on BOP pace'. I'm worried in some disciplines I may actually be slower than that, while in others I may be overtraining since I'm high end MOP. |
2010-01-06 9:56 AM in reply to: #2597479 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP You're going to get a different answer from everyone. I use 10-80-10. Or, those in front of me are FOP, those behind me are BOP, and that's me alone in the MOP. |
2010-01-06 9:59 AM in reply to: #2597498 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP randomguymike - 2010-01-06 9:56 AM The only reason I, personally, would liek to better know what FOP/BOP/MOP are estimated to be is I see on the training plans 'times are based on BOP pace'. I'm worried in some disciplines I may actually be slower than that, while in others I may be overtraining since I'm high end MOP. Having training times "based on BOP pace" is ridiculous. Your training paces should be based on your abilities with respect to the type of workout you're doing. |
2010-01-06 10:02 AM in reply to: #2597505 |
Veteran 278 Chicago, IL | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP the bear - 2010-01-06 9:59 AM Having training times "based on BOP pace" is ridiculous. Your training paces should be based on your abilities with respect to the type of workout you're doing. My pace is based on my pace, but the duration of the workout is based on BOP pace. So, for the same plan (20 week Oly BT plan) I could be doing 9 mile runs and somebody else could be doing 6 mile runs, since the plan is duration based. Somebody else is likely doing 11 miles for that plan. |
2010-01-06 10:03 AM in reply to: #2597479 |
Runner | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP I guess my response is what are you trying to determine? Honestly, the terms are pretty meaningless. You ranked where you ranked. In one race, your performance could put you at 10th, in another it could put you 100th. |
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2010-01-06 10:10 AM in reply to: #2597479 |
Veteran 294 Papillion, NE | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP I agree, it is all relative to who is competing that day. One day your time may be good enough for FOP and those same times on another day could be BOP. |
2010-01-06 10:10 AM in reply to: #2597479 |
Pro 3804 Seacoast, NH! | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP I like to establish a "best-fit" bell curve using race data and pick the BOP and FOP....okay, just kidding. What is the purpose of knowing the answer? It's very subjective and quite honestly will get you nowhere. |
2010-01-06 10:13 AM in reply to: #2597556 |
New Haven, CT | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP Time is relative as Einstein said. |
2010-01-06 10:14 AM in reply to: #2597562 |
New Haven, CT | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP jgerbodegrant - 2010-01-06 11:10 AM I like to establish a "best-fit" bell curve using race data and pick the BOP and FOP....okay, just kidding. What is the purpose of knowing the answer? It's very subjective and quite honestly will get you nowhere. I'll email my regression analysis on all posted BTers finisher times cross referenced with actual race results (accuracy matters) which will definitively answer the question. |
2010-01-06 10:17 AM in reply to: #2597556 |
Champion 5495 Whizzzzzlandia | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP DJS - 2010-01-06 10:10 AM I agree, it is all relative to who is competing that day. One day your time may be good enough for FOP and those same times on another day could be BOP. Or you could just divide it in thirds. Top third, middle third and back third. But like ^^^ said, it all depends upon who shows up to race on any given day. |
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2010-01-06 10:23 AM in reply to: #2597479 |
Veteran 288 | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP In my first tri last year I was last in my age group on the bike then in my next tri I was first in my age group on the bike. Did I have a harder effort on the 2nd race...nope probably a little harder on the first race. The first race had a much more competitive group of racers overall, so its more about who shows up for most of us. So where do I stand, I think MOP mostly. Edited by rockrunner 2010-01-06 10:24 AM |
2010-01-06 10:23 AM in reply to: #2597578 |
Pro 3804 Seacoast, NH! | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP jsklarz - 2010-01-06 11:14 AM jgerbodegrant - 2010-01-06 11:10 AM I like to establish a "best-fit" bell curve using race data and pick the BOP and FOP....okay, just kidding. What is the purpose of knowing the answer? It's very subjective and quite honestly will get you nowhere. I'll email my regression analysis on all posted BTers finisher times cross referenced with actual race results (accuracy matters) which will definitively answer the question. haha....would you please!? I've been wanting that data FOREVER! |
2010-01-06 10:25 AM in reply to: #2597556 |
Master 2301 Rogersville, Alabama | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP DJS - 2010-01-06 10:10 AM I agree, it is all relative to who is competing that day. One day your time may be good enough for FOP and those same times on another day could be BOP. x2 I've always went with 20-60-20. Edited by BamaDC 2010-01-06 10:25 AM |
2010-01-06 10:25 AM in reply to: #2597479 |
Master 1547 | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP The only thing of use I pull from the definitions is that perhaps I am better at the long stuff. I am BOP in the sprints and Oly's...but firmly MOP in the IM. Still meaningless though...I need more races. BUT...take your AG and break it up in 3rds...top 33%, bottom 33%, and the in between is MOP. IT still depends who shows up on race day. |
2010-01-06 10:28 AM in reply to: #2597633 |
Sensei Sin City | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP |
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2010-01-06 10:32 AM in reply to: #2597479 |
Pro 5011 Twin Cities | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP Well, the definition I think is statistical... IMO, somewhere around 20/60/20 or 10/70/20. Where someone falls on the bell curve at any given race is probably race-day-dependent. FWIW, if you find yourself landing CONSISTENTLY in one of those three categories, regardless of race size...then you probably are a fine example :-) |
2010-01-06 10:37 AM in reply to: #2597499 |
Champion 4835 Eat Cheese or Die | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP the bear - 2010-01-06 9:56 AM those in front of me are FOP, those behind me are BOP, and that's me alone in the MOP. The best answer I've ever seen. |
2010-01-06 10:38 AM in reply to: #2597680 |
Sensei Sin City | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP graceful_dave - 2010-01-06 8:37 AM the bear - 2010-01-06 9:56 AM those in front of me are FOP, those behind me are BOP, and that's me alone in the MOP. The best answer I've ever seen.what if you are last or first? |
2010-01-06 10:42 AM in reply to: #2597562 |
Master 2406 Bellevue, WA | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP jgerbodegrant - 2010-01-06 8:10 AM I like to establish a "best-fit" bell curve using race data and pick the BOP and FOP....okay, just kidding. What is the purpose of knowing the answer? It's very subjective and quite honestly will get you nowhere. I actually did analyze both IMAZ and IMC results, just to see how different the courses compare and for fun. The visualization of data is somewhat challenging because it's easy to get meaningless charts and/or see what you want to see. I also tried some correlation between bike times and run times although I didn't get too far along with that. Obviously this data informs you about how other people of done that course in the past, not how you will do it come race day. But it's still useful in the sense of helping set realistic goals. It doesn't have to be complicated, a simple percentile will do, or you can go off into the analytical weeds as far as you want and draw lots of shaky conclusions. Some of us do like to play with numbers, after all. |
2010-01-06 10:43 AM in reply to: #2597479 |
Expert 1027 | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP Beating a dead horse with saying it is subjective, but it depends who shows up. I tend to base my goals on race times because I can control that. I also think depending on your races, that they are different between Overall rankings and AG places. Take for example someone who is 70 and another elite athlete in their 30s, two very different times, but based on the performance, the 70 year old may qualify for Best of the Best or other races because of their performance that does not matter how the whole crowd does that day but rather the AG. All that said, my AG thoughts for smaller races (non lifetime fitness style series etc) Top 3 (podium) - FOP Everyone else is MOP Bottom 10% - BOP Overall times, I would say top 10-20 is FOP Middle 60 percent Remainder BOP |
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2010-01-06 10:48 AM in reply to: #2597499 |
Master 2355 Houston, TX | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP those in front of me are FOP, those behind me are BOP, and that's me alone in the MOP. That's how I think. |
2010-01-06 10:49 AM in reply to: #2597688 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP Kido - 2010-01-06 10:38 AM graceful_dave - 2010-01-06 8:37 AM the bear - 2010-01-06 9:56 AM those in front of me are FOP, those behind me are BOP, and that's me alone in the MOP. The best answer I've ever seen.what if you are last or first? Neither has happened to date, nor do I expect either to happen anytime soon. |
2010-01-06 10:59 AM in reply to: #2597479 |
Elite 5316 Alturas, California | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP Alright...... middle of the bell curve is the average race time + and - 1 standard deviation so the middle 68 percent (MOP). This leaves 16 percent for the FOP and BOP (Those finishing more than 1 standard deviation above the average and those finishing more than 1 standard deviation below the average time for completion). If you wanted to tweek the numbers to have extreem FOP and BOP with an extended MOP you could stretch it to only being FOP or BOP if you are 1.5 standard deviations above or below the mean resulting in the top 6 percent FOP, middle 88 percent MOP and back 6 percent BOP. As a comparision Kona qualifying times are typically top 2 percent and Boston qualifying times are typicaly top 6 percent. So Kona is looking at a full 2 standard devaitions above the mean where Boston is only looking for 1.5 standard deviations above the mean for their FOP qualifiers (Extreme FOP). Academically your standard FOP is a B/B+ or better (1 standard deviation), Boston is an A (+1.5 standard deviations) and Kona is an A+ (+ 2 standard deviations). |
2010-01-06 12:43 PM in reply to: #2597759 |
Veteran 139 Metairie | Subject: RE: Better Define: BOP/MOP/FOP Baowolf - 2010-01-06 10:59 AM Alright...... middle of the bell curve is the average race time + and - 1 standard deviation so the middle 68 percent (MOP). This leaves 16 percent for the FOP and BOP (Those finishing more than 1 standard deviation above the average and those finishing more than 1 standard deviation below the average time for completion). If you wanted to tweek the numbers to have extreem FOP and BOP with an extended MOP you could stretch it to only being FOP or BOP if you are 1.5 standard deviations above or below the mean resulting in the top 6 percent FOP, middle 88 percent MOP and back 6 percent BOP. As a comparision Kona qualifying times are typically top 2 percent and Boston qualifying times are typicaly top 6 percent. So Kona is looking at a full 2 standard devaitions above the mean where Boston is only looking for 1.5 standard deviations above the mean for their FOP qualifiers (Extreme FOP). Academically your standard FOP is a B/B+ or better (1 standard deviation), Boston is an A (+1.5 standard deviations) and Kona is an A+ (+ 2 standard deviations). Very nice, that is my kind of thinking. |
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