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20 Min TT Power Question
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 2010-04-22 10:26 AM |
Expert  1099   Bedford, NH |  Subject: 20 Min TT Power QuestionOk, so I've had a power meter for a few months now. When I first got it, I did my first 20 min TT on my rollers and averaged 312 watts. When I did my TT this morning outside on a nice flat course, I averaged 313 watts. Are these results comparable or is this like comparing apples to oranges? My friend that I bought my PowerTap from, who is quite cyclist and very knowledgeable, thought that I would be generate more power when I got out on the open road as opposed to on the rollers. If this is true, have I gotten weaker? Any input would be greatly appreciated. |
| 2010-04-22 10:31 AM in reply to: #2809926 |
| over a barrier | Subject: RE: 20 Min TT Power Question You're generally able to produce more power outside due to several reasons, body can be cooled easier, motivation, etc. I wouldn't say you're weaker though. Pick one method and stick with it. We generally race outside though  |
| 2010-04-22 10:54 AM in reply to: #2809926 |
Champion 19812    MA | Subject: RE: 20 Min TT Power Question I get a bump up of about 20 watts when I do TT compared to indoors after I ride outside for awhile. How much outdoor riding have you done? I think it will come just hasn't yet. Were you rested the same between the two? motivated to go hard the same? |
| 2010-04-22 10:59 AM in reply to: #2809926 |
Master 1853 syracuse | Subject: RE: 20 Min TT Power Question hockeyhands - 2010-04-22 11:26 AM Ok, so I've had a power meter for a few months now. When I first got it, I did my first 20 min TT on my rollers and averaged 312 watts. When I did my TT this morning outside on a nice flat course, I averaged 313 watts. Are these results comparable or is this like comparing apples to oranges? My friend that I bought my PowerTap from, who is quite cyclist and very knowledgeable, thought that I would be generate more power when I got out on the open road as opposed to on the rollers. If this is true, have I gotten weaker? Any input would be greatly appreciated. its only 1 test. really, the trust in improvement is your race times, or you faster or slower there? also, I would look at your steady efforts and your HR compared to your watts. Is that improving? 20 minutes test, while can show improved cycling, is not as good, IMO, as testing fitness improvement with race results and a long, slow, steady, upward trend of watts vs. HR over your steady rides. |
| 2010-04-22 12:53 PM in reply to: #2809926 |
Expert 1099 Bedford, NH | Subject: RE: 20 Min TT Power Question Thanks for the input guys. I plan to do my TTs outside as much as possible. However, living in New England, I don't see myself doing an outdoor TT in February anytime soon.  I agree, it was only one test and I was a little tired this morning. Nonetheless, the motivation was there, and I felt I pushed it pretty well. There are obviously are quite a few different variables when comparing an indoor roller ride to an outdoor ride. My HR was significantly lower with this outdoor TT. However, I didn't have any fans on me during my indoor ride and was probably in the high 40s to low 50s this morning riding outside. Here are details: Indoors in Feb Avg HR: 179 Max HR: 190 Today Outside Avg HR: 170 Max HR: 177 I'm not overly concerned about it, but I mainly wanted to see if what my friend was saying was true. Thanks again. |
| 2010-04-23 2:02 PM in reply to: #2809926 |
Master 2158 | Subject: RE: 20 Min TT Power Question You can't compare the power on a TT test from indoor to outdoor. Also, the power isn't the only measure that matters right? What about the exertion? Many things can affect the results. I would say do it again on rollers and see how it comes out. |
| 2010-04-23 2:24 PM in reply to: #2809926 |
Elite 3088 Austin, TX Gold member | Subject: RE: 20 Min TT Power Question When doing a 20 min TT, power IS the only thing that matters. The whole point is to let it all hang out and go as hard as you can for 20 minutes. If you're not about to puke at the 19:59 mark, you didn't go hard enough. It is true that you're likely to see difference indoors versus outdoors. You'll generally ride cooler outdoors. The subtle position changes of actually riding and steering generally make you more comfortable. Actually moving as you ride also tends to lend a bit of motivation to the ride as compared to stationary. Those factors all tend to make it possible to crank just a little harder outdoors. |
| 2010-04-26 4:57 PM in reply to: #2810389 |
Master 1826 | Subject: RE: 20 Min TT Power Question hockeyhands - 2010-04-22 1:53 PM Thanks for the input guys. I plan to do my TTs outside as much as possible. However, living in New England, I don't see myself doing an outdoor TT in February anytime soon. I agree, it was only one test and I was a little tired this morning. Nonetheless, the motivation was there, and I felt I pushed it pretty well. There are obviously are quite a few different variables when comparing an indoor roller ride to an outdoor ride. My HR was significantly lower with this outdoor TT. However, I didn't have any fans on me during my indoor ride and was probably in the high 40s to low 50s this morning riding outside. Here are details: Indoors in Feb Avg HR: 179 Max HR: 190 Today Outside Avg HR: 170 Max HR: 177 I'm not overly concerned about it, but I mainly wanted to see if what my friend was saying was true. Thanks again. This post would make me say you didn't go hard enough |
| 2010-04-30 12:07 PM in reply to: #2817969 |
Champion 8540 the colony texas | Subject: RE: 20 Min TT Power Question 2x the comment of it's just one test so dont' read alot into it. however on rollers you get no coasting breaks, while when riding outside you might come across reasons to slow down a touch or coast here and there which might end up being a few minutes total bringing your avgerage down. also were they any downhills it's really hard for me to keep a high power output going downhill, while these are just little things anytime you are putting out less than the avg watts you are bringing that avg down. and it can add up. |
| 2010-04-30 1:40 PM in reply to: #2809926 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: 20 Min TT Power Question hockeyhands - 2010-04-22 10:26 AM Ok, so I've had a power meter for a few months now. When I first got it, I did my first 20 min TT on my rollers and averaged 312 watts. When I did my TT this morning outside on a nice flat course, I averaged 313 watts. Are these results comparable or is this like comparing apples to oranges? My friend that I bought my PowerTap from, who is quite cyclist and very knowledgeable, thought that I would be generate more power when I got out on the open road as opposed to on the rollers. If this is true, have I gotten weaker? Any input would be greatly appreciated. This might be the case in general, however many things have to be considered especially if both tests were done under similar conditions (rested, fueled, etc). But assuming they both were similar, the simple answer is that testing on rollers is probably one of the best way indoors at replicating riding the conditions of riding outdoors. Most people test with a trainer and that's where the differences become more apparent and it is affected usually by the fly wheel (the weight used on the trainers). Trainers with smaller/less heavy fly wheels are tougher to reproduce the same power you would do outdoors yet the perceived exertion is similar, for that reason many folks test lower indoors than outdoors. |
| 2010-04-30 1:44 PM in reply to: #2817969 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: 20 Min TT Power Question FeltonR.Nubbinsworth - 2010-04-26 4:57 PM hockeyhands - 2010-04-22 1:53 PM Thanks for the input guys. I plan to do my TTs outside as much as possible. However, living in New England, I don't see myself doing an outdoor TT in February anytime soon. I agree, it was only one test and I was a little tired this morning. Nonetheless, the motivation was there, and I felt I pushed it pretty well. There are obviously are quite a few different variables when comparing an indoor roller ride to an outdoor ride. My HR was significantly lower with this outdoor TT. However, I didn't have any fans on me during my indoor ride and was probably in the high 40s to low 50s this morning riding outside. Here are details: Indoors in Feb Avg HR: 179 Max HR: 190 Today Outside Avg HR: 170 Max HR: 177 I'm not overly concerned about it, but I mainly wanted to see if what my friend was saying was true. Thanks again. This post would make me say you didn't go hard enough Not necessarely, HR can be affected by many variables hence it would be hard to draw any definitve conclusions. For instance as the OP indicated he didn't have any fans when he tested indoors hence it is not surprising his HR might have been higher then than when riding outdoors on 50s degree weather. In fact one could also speculate he could have gone harder on the indoors test and the lack of proper cooling effect (fans) hindered his power avg. The point is - it is hard to tell and the why it is very important to always replicate testing conditions as close as possible. |
| 2010-04-30 4:47 PM in reply to: #2809926 |
Expert 1099 Bedford, NH | Subject: RE: 20 Min TT Power Question Thanks for all the info everyone. I did do this on a rail trail so there were a few times that I had to slow down to cross some streets. I also think that I did go hard enough and the reason my HR was lower was because I was the doing the TT outside on a cool New England morning as opposed to indoors with no fans. I agree Jorge that it makes the most sense to stick to doing the TT indoors. Yes, we do race outside, but living in New England, this will give me the most consistency for my tests. Everyone else agree with that? |
| 2010-05-04 8:03 AM in reply to: #2829380 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: 20 Min TT Power Question hockeyhands - 2010-04-30 4:47 PM Thanks for all the info everyone. I did do this on a rail trail so there were a few times that I had to slow down to cross some streets. I also think that I did go hard enough and the reason my HR was lower was because I was the doing the TT outside on a cool New England morning as opposed to indoors with no fans. I agree Jorge that it makes the most sense to stick to doing the TT indoors. Yes, we do race outside, but living in New England, this will give me the most consistency for my tests. Everyone else agree with that? During the winter I test indoors, a soon as I can ride outdoors I test outdoors. Since I have a computrainer my power is usually within ~5 watts from each other. Don't know how close you live from Concord, MA but you can head out there to ride the charlie baker time trial loop, it will take you around 21+ min and you can use it for a test. There is not much stopping, great place to test! |
| 2010-05-04 1:21 PM in reply to: #2835329 |
Expert 1099 Bedford, NH | Subject: RE: 20 Min TT Power Question JorgeM - 2010-05-04 9:03 AM During the winter I test indoors, a soon as I can ride outdoors I test outdoors. Since I have a computrainer my power is usually within ~5 watts from each other. Don't know how close you live from Concord, MA but you can head out there to ride the charlie baker time trial loop, it will take you around 21+ min and you can use it for a test. There is not much stopping, great place to test! Yeah, I train there quite a bit. Thanks Jorge! |
| 2010-05-05 9:59 PM in reply to: #2828964 |
Master 1826 | Subject: RE: 20 Min TT Power Question JorgeM - 2010-04-30 2:44 PM FeltonR.Nubbinsworth - 2010-04-26 4:57 PM hockeyhands - 2010-04-22 1:53 PM Thanks for the input guys. I plan to do my TTs outside as much as possible. However, living in New England, I don't see myself doing an outdoor TT in February anytime soon. I agree, it was only one test and I was a little tired this morning. Nonetheless, the motivation was there, and I felt I pushed it pretty well. There are obviously are quite a few different variables when comparing an indoor roller ride to an outdoor ride. My HR was significantly lower with this outdoor TT. However, I didn't have any fans on me during my indoor ride and was probably in the high 40s to low 50s this morning riding outside. Here are details: Indoors in Feb Avg HR: 179 Max HR: 190 Today Outside Avg HR: 170 Max HR: 177 I'm not overly concerned about it, but I mainly wanted to see if what my friend was saying was true. Thanks again. This post would make me say you didn't go hard enough Not necessarely, HR can be affected by many variables hence it would be hard to draw any definitve conclusions. For instance as the OP indicated he didn't have any fans when he tested indoors hence it is not surprising his HR might have been higher then than when riding outdoors on 50s degree weather. In fact one could also speculate he could have gone harder on the indoors test and the lack of proper cooling effect (fans) hindered his power avg. The point is - it is hard to tell and the why it is very important to always replicate testing conditions as close as possible. I agree that HR can be influenced by many variables, but 23 beats per minute is not just effects from fans etc. I have tested indoors, outdoors, hilly, flat, hot, cold, fans etc etc and I don't watch HR when testing. With that my max has always been within a few beats, and the average over the duration has been the same or off by 1 beat. So while I agree with your premise, my experience and others that I have watched/reviewed testing show that they could put up very similar HRs when adequately warmed up. My one test it was in the high 30s outside and I needed to remove gloves I was so hot with a jacked up HR His statement later that he had to slow to cross trails has a bigger impact. On a 10 minute interval yesterday I had to slow due to traffic (8 minutes in) and I lost 6-8 watts in a blink of a second. Outside what was your VI? |
| 2010-05-06 12:04 PM in reply to: #2840266 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: 20 Min TT Power Question FeltonR.Nubbinsworth - 2010-05-05 9:59 PM JorgeM - 2010-04-30 2:44 PM FeltonR.Nubbinsworth - 2010-04-26 4:57 PM hockeyhands - 2010-04-22 1:53 PM Thanks for the input guys. I plan to do my TTs outside as much as possible. However, living in New England, I don't see myself doing an outdoor TT in February anytime soon. I agree, it was only one test and I was a little tired this morning. Nonetheless, the motivation was there, and I felt I pushed it pretty well. There are obviously are quite a few different variables when comparing an indoor roller ride to an outdoor ride. My HR was significantly lower with this outdoor TT. However, I didn't have any fans on me during my indoor ride and was probably in the high 40s to low 50s this morning riding outside. Here are details: Indoors in Feb Avg HR: 179 Max HR: 190 Today Outside Avg HR: 170 Max HR: 177 I'm not overly concerned about it, but I mainly wanted to see if what my friend was saying was true. Thanks again. This post would make me say you didn't go hard enough Not necessarely, HR can be affected by many variables hence it would be hard to draw any definitve conclusions. For instance as the OP indicated he didn't have any fans when he tested indoors hence it is not surprising his HR might have been higher then than when riding outdoors on 50s degree weather. In fact one could also speculate he could have gone harder on the indoors test and the lack of proper cooling effect (fans) hindered his power avg. The point is - it is hard to tell and the why it is very important to always replicate testing conditions as close as possible. I agree that HR can be influenced by many variables, but 23 beats per minute is not just effects from fans etc. I have tested indoors, outdoors, hilly, flat, hot, cold, fans etc etc and I don't watch HR when testing. With that my max has always been within a few beats, and the average over the duration has been the same or off by 1 beat. So while I agree with your premise, my experience and others that I have watched/reviewed testing show that they could put up very similar HRs when adequately warmed up. My one test it was in the high 30s outside and I needed to remove gloves I was so hot with a jacked up HR His statement later that he had to slow to cross trails has a bigger impact. On a 10 minute interval yesterday I had to slow due to traffic (8 minutes in) and I lost 6-8 watts in a blink of a second. Outside what was your VI? The difference was 9 bpm from testing indoors to outdoors on the avg HR for the TT; I've seen people swimng 10> bpm just by drinking too much coffee. Using HR when training with power is at best redundant and at worst misleading... |
| 2010-05-13 10:43 AM in reply to: #2841539 |
Master 1826 | Subject: RE: 20 Min TT Power Question JorgeM - 2010-05-06 1:04 PM FeltonR.Nubbinsworth - 2010-05-05 9:59 PM JorgeM - 2010-04-30 2:44 PM FeltonR.Nubbinsworth - 2010-04-26 4:57 PM hockeyhands - 2010-04-22 1:53 PM Thanks for the input guys. I plan to do my TTs outside as much as possible. However, living in New England, I don't see myself doing an outdoor TT in February anytime soon. I agree, it was only one test and I was a little tired this morning. Nonetheless, the motivation was there, and I felt I pushed it pretty well. There are obviously are quite a few different variables when comparing an indoor roller ride to an outdoor ride. My HR was significantly lower with this outdoor TT. However, I didn't have any fans on me during my indoor ride and was probably in the high 40s to low 50s this morning riding outside. Here are details: Indoors in Feb Avg HR: 179 Max HR: 190 Today Outside Avg HR: 170 Max HR: 177 I'm not overly concerned about it, but I mainly wanted to see if what my friend was saying was true. Thanks again. This post would make me say you didn't go hard enough Not necessarely, HR can be affected by many variables hence it would be hard to draw any definitve conclusions. For instance as the OP indicated he didn't have any fans when he tested indoors hence it is not surprising his HR might have been higher then than when riding outdoors on 50s degree weather. In fact one could also speculate he could have gone harder on the indoors test and the lack of proper cooling effect (fans) hindered his power avg. The point is - it is hard to tell and the why it is very important to always replicate testing conditions as close as possible. I agree that HR can be influenced by many variables, but 23 beats per minute is not just effects from fans etc. I have tested indoors, outdoors, hilly, flat, hot, cold, fans etc etc and I don't watch HR when testing. With that my max has always been within a few beats, and the average over the duration has been the same or off by 1 beat. So while I agree with your premise, my experience and others that I have watched/reviewed testing show that they could put up very similar HRs when adequately warmed up. My one test it was in the high 30s outside and I needed to remove gloves I was so hot with a jacked up HR His statement later that he had to slow to cross trails has a bigger impact. On a 10 minute interval yesterday I had to slow due to traffic (8 minutes in) and I lost 6-8 watts in a blink of a second. Outside what was your VI? The difference was 9 bpm from testing indoors to outdoors on the avg HR for the TT; I've seen people swimng 10> bpm just by drinking too much coffee. Using HR when training with power is at best redundant and at worst misleading... I would disagree that it is redundant, I would also say don't train by HR if you have a power meter. As many of the experts discuss, and I would agree .. HR is a measure of input and power is a measure of output, so in this case they cannot be redundant due to the different roles. HR is useful for looking at dehydration levels and many other things such as endurance wrt cardiac drift. Average HRs can be misleading depending on your starting HR, how quickly it responds to the effort, reaching the plateau, etc.. the effects you describe with coffee etc impacting HR will all show in the average, that is why I looked at the max HR. To me that shows effort of the interval, you can have depressed HR for many reasons and elevated HR for many reasons.. and you never know what this individuals HR at the time was like for either test. But a delta of 23 for a max HR is just too large in my mind to say.. "normal" .. something is up with the test, effort level, or rested state of the individual |
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