Headphones while running or walking

I don't have statistics, and don't know if they exist. You're probably right in that this is a "common sense" thing, but I'll counter your points anyway: 

The screams of passersby of "Oh my!! That car is crossing the yellow line and is heading towards that guy running...yes you!!!" (Sorry, run4, trying to be humourous and not an a$$)

I too am overly conservative but find running into traffic with headphones to be safe and anything that happens behind me outside of that, well, it just isnt going to be my day anyways.  Besides, its not the cars I am worried about.  Its the machete wielding maniacs out in the boonies on dark country morning runs, as stated in another thread yesterday.  From what I have seen in the movies, they move pretty slow so I use the dicey stretches for interval runs.

This is perhaps an issue on longer runs which is why I sometimes leave em home too.  I do feel smoother on these runs sometimes but out an hour plus can be tough (though far from impossible)

I think if I can hear birds chirping over my music, I can hear tires squealing. More than a little disingenuous to think that you would hear it sooner, too, as headphones don't exactly slow down the speed of sound. Hear it better, maybe marginally so, but not faster.

How conservative are you? Do you wear a helmet on the bike? Of course you do. Why? Usually to prevent traumatic head injury. Do you wear a helmet in the car? I have read (and no, don't have the source readily available) that many more traumatic head injuries occur in automobiles that can be prevented or lessened by wearing a helmet. Yet no one except maybe Jim does.

I think we get into this mind set that a behavior is dangerous because someone has said so, or because it seems that way, or just because it's not our preferred mode of behavior.

So you would see no problem wearing your headphones while riding your bike?

I see no problem with other people who choose to do so wearing headphones while riding their bike. I haven't yet, may choose to do so at some point, but will readily admit that it's a different set of circumstances than running. Higher speeds, less margin for error, balance issues, etc.

I have a cycling friend of mine who has his MP3 and headphones mounted on his helmet (rather than stuck in his ears), plays Cajun music selected at 180bpm to match his optimal cadence. He has no problem hearing or carrying on a conversation while his music plays in the background.

Fair enough, but allowing for a decreased margin of error seems to fly in the face of your earlier comment about the sound not getting there any slower. I think a more accurate discription of what Jim was saying is that your reaction time is slower for a muffled or undefined sound, and head phones do, no matter the sophestry, increase your danger.

I like to run long distances with an MP3. I know that my risk is greater and that the increase is dependant upon the situation (neighborhood running, cross town, park, etc.... I have also ridden with headphones and it was pretty unsettling. Cars were on me before I knew it, couldn't hear ambient sounds etc.... I bring up the bike to point out that while it is an exageration from the dangers involved with running and headphones, it is also shows that headphones do limit sensory input and more importantly, create a delay in processing what input you are receiving.

I think the risk is negligable while running, but it's there.

What I'm hearing from both Jim and Welshy seems to back up OP's theory "that this policy is just an overconservative "it sounds good" piece of advice."

There are a lot of dangers inherent in training, especially on the streets. If headphones enhance the risk by a minuscle amount (as you both seem to indicate) does that make them "dangerous"? Would a greater degree of safety be achieved by staying off the streets, running exclusively on trails, or, safer yed, staying in bed with the covers pulled up to your chin.

Life is dangerous. Assess the risks, do what you have to do to enjoy it, but live it to its fullest. Just be careful trying to legislate or make "rules" governing the behavior of others. 

I don't think anyone's talking about legislating or governing others, just talking about my personal choices. Sure, headphones are only going to mitigate the risk of a from-behind approaching car slightly. But I'll take it.

But what about a case the OP didn't mention: a person approaching from behind. Say you're a relatively slow runner and someone passes you from behind. You don't hear their approaching footfalls because of your headphones. They startle you and you flinch away, into oncoming traffic.

Or say that person wants to do you harm...

Again...not telling people how they should live their lives, just how I live mine.

Sure. I'm not saying don't do it - I wear them pretty regularly, but I've been doing it for a while and have an idea of what to expect from wearing them and what that risk is, making it, as you said, miniscule. For someone just starting, its a little irresponsible to say there is no risk.

Bear, either you are saying there is no risk, or all life is risk. Starting by arguing there is no risk and finishing that everything is risky is not an argument, it's changing your argument to camouflage a slippery slope you've climbed onto and can't really defend.

Uh, the original poster was. He is responding to a base regulation prohibiting headphones.

Then why not stay off the street and mitigate the risk completely? Seems silly to avoid a minuscle increase in risk while assuming the larger risk of running on the street.

Don't put words in my mouth, I haven't said there is no risk, just that the increased risk is minuscle compared to the other risks we take every day.

You know, it's a sunny day here and if I hold all of your relevant points up to the light and line them up just right and tilt my head to the side just a little.....there.  It looks like all three of you (Bear, Jim and Welshy) are right.  You're not really making a lot of points that directly contradict each other, although you all made good points.  And 'passingthought' still has no answer to his post.

Help this guy fight 'the man' with something official, if it's out there.  That's all he wants.

Which is more dangerous:

A.     Riding/driving in a car without a helmet

B.     Running on the sidwalk with headphones on medium to low volume

A, of course. Again, no statistics in front of me but more people die in carr accidents than do running on the sidewalk. The corollary to that is there are many, many, many (exponentially so) more motorists than runners on the road. It's kinda like the struck by lightening/shark attack example. Sure more people get struck, but then again more people are exposed to lightening threats...relatively speaking, there just aren't that many people exposed to sharks.

But as to your qualifications in B: on the sidewalk, low to medium volume. I thought we were tlaking about running on the road. Obviously you aren't going to be pestered by cars as much up on ths sidewalk. But if you are on the sidewalk, my predator example earlier applies even more.

And low to medium volume: what about those that like it loud?

My main problem with headphones (again, personally...do what ever you want), is they lead to obliviousness. When I listen to music, I'm much more apt to tune out my surroundings. For some reason, it doesn't happen when I'm in the car. Probably because the immediate threat of disaster is much higher when driving. BUt if I'm running listening to music, I just go away. But that's me.

And as far as legislating, the OP gave a military example, It doesn't apply to the "real world." When you sign up, you forego a lot of basic civil rights.

Ok, well even though we're straying from the OP, for the record I'm like that too.  When I have headphones on I start out thinking I can still hear my surroundings, but then once I get into a rythym my brain just shuts down.  I get lost in the music and think about everything except what I'm doing.  90% of my running is on sidewalks and bike paths so safety isn't a huge concern for me, except for crossing streets.  Speaking of which - let me continue the hijack with this completely unrelated to headphones story.

One night last fall I'm running and I go through a new area with some townhomes.  I'm coming out the bike path toward a busy street and WHAM!!!  I didn't see the chain strung between the two posts at the opening of the bike path to the street and it caught in the middle of my right shin.  I went down hard on my hands, almost falling into the street.  The embarrassment (even though nobody saw me) was worse than the pain.  So I limped the rest of the run home.  By the time I got there I was laughing about it.  I told my wife the story.  The very next night I run through the same area but the opposite direction.  As I'm coming up to the busy street where I need to cross I'm thinking, "jump over the chain, jump over the chain."  The simple act of focusing on crossing the busy street distracts me so much that as I sprint across the road sure enough I nail the friggin' chain again.  DUH!  Now I really felt like a jackass-plenty of cars saw me this time.  The worst part was telling my wife because now when I tell a blonde joke she throws that back at me.  The phrase "No chain!" has meaning for me when running too.

I guess I could make a point about how we may claim we are not too distracted, but we don't really know, because we are distracted.  That seems circular, but something to think about.

My same headphones, autumn, and you're right, they allow a lot of ambient sound in. As I said, I can hear birds chirp when I run, and have no problem holding a conversation when I'm wearing them at the gym.

 I think some of you (Jim) are making generalizations based on your experiences and applying them to others who use different headphones at different volumes in different situations. His "sidewalks are safer than roads" reference, for instance.I would speculate that my country roads, where I may encounter six cars in an hour run, and can hear and see them a quarter mile off, are safer than city sidewalks, especially if your sidewalk route intersects city streets.

You still haven't answered my question: Why forego the minute risk of wearing headphones but undertake the relatively huge risk of training on the streets?