General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Long Run paces...how fast is too fast.. Rss Feed  
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2012-02-07 7:00 PM

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Subject: Long Run paces...how fast is too fast..

..and how slow is too slow.  I need some advice on my running pace.  This year my goal is a sub-2hour HM.  My PR (and only HM outside of HIM) was a 2:06 with very little training in 2010.  Now I know this is a cakewalk for a lot of you..were talking 9 min/miles here.  So..I'm doing some speed work (5k pace), tempo work at (8:50 pace /10K) ...now comes the long run.  I went to Runner's World and used their Pace Calculator...by their advice I should be running my long runs at 10:19-11:36 pace.  I just find this hard to go this slow...I just did an 8.5 mile run at 9:56 pace and it felt good/easy/not too taxing first thing in the morning.    

Last year most of my long runs were at a 9:38 pace which included a 30sec-1min walk break every mile (simulate aid stations!) but I found myself getting burnt out by race time (had my first HIM in August).  

So..should I slow down and how do you go about that or go with what comes naturally??? 



2012-02-07 7:25 PM
in reply to: #4034846

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Master
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Subject: RE: Long Run paces...how fast is too fast..
I wouldn't sweat the difference between a 9:56 and a 10:19 (the fast end of that spread you were given). Some days a 10:19 is going to feel like what your 9:56 felt like the other day. Some days it'll be a 9:45.

I'd trust the internal pace meter that seems to be developing for you. Eventually, you'll just come to "know" your paces and how they make subtle shifts according to current fitness and whatever that day is bringing you. Keep a training log and note what impacts what. Those pace calculators are not always going to be accurate for all people. They just can't be.

Your long run is all about time on your feet. So set your self up to progressively spend more time on your feet each week. It sounds like you're doing just that. My long runs are currently anywhere from 45 - 60 seconds off of my goal marathon pace. As my training progresses, I'll dial in my actual goal pace more and more accurately.

Sounds like you're in the appropriate ballpark. And moving from 2:06 to 1:59 is quite a manageable goal. Especially if you were undertrained for the 2:06. Relax and let it come to you.
2012-02-07 9:35 PM
in reply to: #4034846

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Subject: RE: Long Run paces...how fast is too fast..

Agree with BernardDog's perspective.  I'm not accomplished runner (actually a non-athlete), but went sub-2 HM for 1st time last May.  Then posted another PR with ease  the next mo in much warmer more humid conditions.  From this slug's perspective going sub-2 really is about logging the miles (consistent 30+mpw) without killing your legs for the next next day/week's training plans.  If that means a few walk breaks to keep the pace under control that's fine (as rec by coaches Galloway, Higdon, & others). Any LR pace roughly in 10min +/- range is fine, as all the 'big name' plans seem to be about that range.  I usu find it easier to maintain 10min pace by running 9+min intervals with walk breaks vs trying to run steady 10min pace.  But find what works best for you.  Speedwork prob not necessary as you already have speed to go sub-2.  It's being on your feet for 2+hrs that will give you the endurance to maintain that speed for full HM. Only other suggestion might be for a little hill work (1-2x/wk) if your HM course is hilly. 

BTW- You mentioned being burned out at race day.  Did you taper for ~10-14 days pre-race?  Goal #1 for any race is getting to start line rested and UNinjured.

With a little luck I'm sure you will achieve your goal.

2012-02-07 9:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Long Run paces...how fast is too fast..

You should be fine at your current pace.  As the previous post said there is not much difference in the paces you indicate.  The other factor you mention is that your PR came at a time when you did not train much.  So if you factor in the additional fitness since the PR, your pace is probably right on. 

If you are really worried about it, run a 10K and put that into the calculator to update the paces to your new fitness level.

Good luck!

2012-02-07 10:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Long Run paces...how fast is too fast..
The pace that you're doing seems fine ... except that if you need to stop for walk breaks, then perhaps you're running too fast, and going too far for your current level of fitness. To meet your goal I'd recommend to cut out the run intervals and just focus on getting frequent easy/steady runs in, to gradually build your mileage. If your logs are accurate, you've averaged 10-11 miles per week for the past month, on 2-3 runs per week. If you simply get out there and run easy more frequently, you'll likely find that your goal time will take care of itself ... and you won't need to worry about the walk breaks. A good rule of thumb is to have no run be longer than a third of your weekly volume, nor to have any individual run be dramatically longer than the other runs that you're doing. That reduces the injury risk and increases the body's ability to recover from the training. Good luck.
2012-02-08 12:47 AM
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Subject: RE: Long Run paces...how fast is too fast..
LSD pace long runs should leave you feeling like you could have kept going for a much longer time. Do you have a recent race time? I could see what Daniels has to say in the running formula book for your paces, but it seems like you are dialed in for a 1:59:59 hm. If your tempo pace is 8:50, you should be holding around 10:50 (+/- a good bit probably) on your lsd runs. Don't feel tempted to run your long runs fast since you aren't running long to build speed, but rather endurance. You should have other days to focus on speed (e.g. tempo, intervals, cruise intervals etc..). 


2012-02-08 5:55 AM
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2012-02-08 7:03 AM
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Runner
Subject: RE: Long Run paces...how fast is too fast..
I think you're better served by keeping the long runs at your current pace and dropping the intervals in favor of an easy run.

LSD = Long STEADY Distance. Focus on trying to maintain a consistent effort.
2012-02-08 12:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Long Run paces...how fast is too fast..
Do you long runs at a pace where you can easily hold a conversation, yes, even with yourself!
2012-02-08 1:48 PM
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Master
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Subject: RE: Long Run paces...how fast is too fast..
My long run this week will be 2 miles warm up, 14 miles at marathon goal pace, 1 mile at marathon pace minus 30 seconds, 1 mile cool down. I do a lot of my longer stuff at close to race pace. I definitely never finish my long runs and think, "man, I wouldn't mind running a few more miles right now..."

My running plan does not closely mimic "the plan" which seems to be very popular on this site. Doesn't mean it is right. Doesn't mean it is wrong. It just is.
2012-02-08 2:36 PM
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Runner
Subject: RE: Long Run paces...how fast is too fast..
wannabefaster - 2012-02-08 2:48 PM

My long run this week will be 2 miles warm up, 14 miles at marathon goal pace, 1 mile at marathon pace minus 30 seconds, 1 mile cool down. I do a lot of my longer stuff at close to race pace. I definitely never finish my long runs and think, "man, I wouldn't mind running a few more miles right now..."

My running plan does not closely mimic "the plan" which seems to be very popular on this site. Doesn't mean it is right. Doesn't mean it is wrong. It just is.


I would tend to agree with this sort of plan for a long run.

ETA:
I tend to view long runs as a "hard" workout. General effort may not be as high as, say, a tempo-type run. But holding a somewhat higher effort level for a longer distance is still a harder workout.

Edited by Scout7 2012-02-08 2:37 PM


2012-02-08 2:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Long Run paces...how fast is too fast..

Are your logs accurate?  Based on the relatively few miles per month you are running, if so, I would focus on getting more miles in.  This might mean you have to slow it down, so that you can remain fresh and ready enough to run again the next day or run longer.  I am not trying to scold you, I think this is related.  Easier runs can mean more runs. 

I think using the conversational pace idea is a good one, it's my most effective tool to measure RPE.

By the way, I train my long runs around 11 min/miles and my pretty recent HM PR is 2:06.  So you can see it is possible to run a good race with slower runs.  I really never run a sub-10 mile in training unless I am doing speed work.  I am not sure there's a "too slow".

One concept I don't fully understand is the aerobic conditioning and how "too fast" can harm your progress.  I would worry about accidentally going over my lactate threshold. 

2012-02-08 3:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Long Run paces...how fast is too fast..

Caveat, I am not a good runner, but have had flashes promise in the last 10 years.  Usually I let something get in the way of taking it to the next level.

What I have experienced and witnessed with respect to the long run is simple.  Be aware of how much the long run contributes to your weekly mileage.  If 50%+ of your weekly mileage comes via your long run, its too much.  I used to despise long runs, because they hurt too much and took too long to recover from.  This negative experience week after week was ALWAYS a contributor to subsequent burn-out, a long break, and massive loss of fitness.  When I try to keep my long run at 25%-30% of weekly mileage and take the focus off of pace, I am never in too much pain, I stay consistent and I rarely feel the burnout.  I am not suggesting you can't cheat on this "rule" from time to time (I have had to in recent weeks), but consistently having the long run be a huge % of weekly mileage has been a disaster for me in the past and I have seen the same with many many training partners. 

With overall consistency and run frequency, you'll smash 2:06 this year!

2012-02-08 3:24 PM
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Runner
Subject: RE: Long Run paces...how fast is too fast..
BikerGrrrl - 2012-02-08 3:54 PM

One concept I don't fully understand is the aerobic conditioning and how "too fast" can harm your progress.  I would worry about accidentally going over my lactate threshold. 



It doesn't "harm" your training. A good training program has a mix of efforts throughout its entirety.

It increases your recovery time. If you don't allow yourself to recover enough between sessions, the stress builds up, and can lead to injury, burn out, or overtraining.
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General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Long Run paces...how fast is too fast.. Rss Feed