IMNY Fatality: Additional Insight on Victim and his High Level of Fitness. (Page 2)

Perfect comment! I was thinking exactly the same thing. IMWA was COOLEST most enjoyable tri swim I've done to date.

I was trying to come up with the "WHY"...

(a). the swim had plenty of room to spread out 1500 competitors (also note it wasn't 2000+ as mentioned above).

(b) the chill factor with the competitors was amazing, we were hanging out talking like we were in a bar prior to the gun going off..absolutely painless start.

(c) the logistics of the swim were plain and simple, swim 1+ mile straight out with 1 turn at the jetty and swim back 1+mile to the finish chute.

my conclusion is that the main reason is the simplicity of the swim design. not all swim courses can be this way, but the less TURNs made and having a WIDE area, is crucial to eliminate congestion.

I absolutely agree and until there is a hard-fast data on the cause of these tragedies we will only be grasping at straws. I believe that USAT is in the process of investigating these incidents and trying to better understand the causes to see if there is any changes that they make if there are any they can make.

Yeah, also from my perspective, I was making a note of the current before the gun went off.  It seemed like most competitors were lining up near the jetty for the "shortest" route.  But the current was pushing into the jetty.  So I lined up WAAAAY to the right and aimed a straight line out.  Probably why I had trouble finding feet.  But by the time I got to the far point, the current had pushed me into the jetty.  It was a nearly perfect trajectory.

And yeah people were so chilled out.  U.S. races seem more gung-ho, do-or-die attitude.  IMWA, it was just like people going for a stroll along the beach.

I grew up in southeast Alaska, my dad was a retired Coast Guard pilot that ran a bush airline.

I have a real personal "giving failed CPR to someone in the wilderness" understanding of Risk.

I see this as a discussion of options....

One option (The most likely outcome ) is that there are no changes we just understand and accept the risk, every thing we do has risk, understand it and accept it.

If on the other hand we as a community WANT to reduce the swim risk then I don't see any way to reduce the risk without some kind of change. If your a professional Triathlete or have a legitimate shot at a podium or kona slot that is a different category than 90% of the people in a triathalon. For the rest the "No way in hell"  I'm accepting any solution that slows me down attitude is part of the problem.   Just by being in the tri you've beaten the 99% of the people still on the couch, is a minute out of your swim really worth someones life?  If it was your life would you rather Mr Speedy have a PR or save you?

So if we want to reduce risk then maybe the fundamental thing that really has to change is this all for me to hell with everyone else attitude.

The Buddy system is one way, there are possibly other creative solutions...

Here's another wild solution, with a speed penalty, but its a shared speed penalty...

Make all the wet suits bright dayglow orange

Every TBD minutes in the swim blow a big horn sound a horn under water, everyone must stop put their hands up and turn a circle while treading water looking for "floaters", horn sounds again everyone can continue swimming, slow, annoying, but 100% fair to everyone....

There are also technological solutions... http://www.hammacher.com/Product/82000?cm_cat=ProductSEM&cm_pla... A heart rate and (easily O2 Sat) monitor that clips on your ear... couple this to a swim float deployment device and if everyone HAD to have one it would probably $150.00. 

$150 swim safety device is not as fun as a nice aero helmet, or cool new shoes... but if the community really wants to tackle the problem then that is one solution. If you really are a FOP elite superman, then think about championing something like this to reduce the risk for normal people who are attracted to the sport you have given your life to...

I did some skydiving in college, 55 jumps  in 1983 and 1984 at the time there was a new cool electronics box that deployed your reserve if you were knocked unconscious in free fall etc... it was really expensive and the jumpers all made fun of the few people that had them... fast forward to 2005 my son wanted to go out and jump for his 18th birthday.. I went out and did a accelerated freefall jump for old times sake... most everyone had an automatic reserve deployment device and they were now significantly less expensive and no one made fun of the people with them. So groups can change and accept things that seem strange at first.

I would love to see MORE kayaks/jet skis. I mean especially at the big events. As much money as we all pay in entrance fees, there should be more than a few paddle boards and a kayak on the course. I know there's more for big races and IMs, but how about a few pontoons, jetskis for quick response etc. I don't know, just thinking out loud. It always makes me feel "good" when I see plenty of paddle boards, kayaks, canoes, boats, and jetskis deployed.

That's an unfair characterization of those that are not of your and Tom's opinion that a "mass solution" is required to solve an unidentified problem, that may very well lie with individual racers and have nothing to do with responses.  While I applaud your creativity, you have not identified a mass problem requiring any sort of these mass solutions.

The only issue, as I see it, is that it takes time for first responders to get to someone in distress.  An infintely more reasonable solution is to do away with the mass start, have a smaller ratio for guards to swimmers in any one zone.

Written by a FOP swimmer who required medical attention during a mass start race, and who has in fact stopped to see if other racers apparently in distress were all right on at least two occasions that I can recall.

I wasn't suggesting reducing the number of swimmers. My point was that there there seems to be an inherent risk in this and that there is always going to be a certain amount of "random bad luck" associated with this sport. 

I came very close to being one of these stories earlier this season. I was was kicked in the head while in the middle of the pack and the next thing I knew the pack was about 100 yards ahead of me. One moment I was swimming and in the fray, the next I was treading water with most of my wave way ahead and a couple of stragglers going by me. I had a very sudden and intense feeling of "You don't belong here. Not today." After struggling with this for just a few seconds, I flopped on my back, kicked to shore and turned in my chip.  I consider myself incredibly fortunate, I could very easily have drowned that day. There was no real way to prevent this from happening other than not getting in the water, which isn't an option. I choose not to live my life that way.

It's a calculated risk every time we get in the water or get on our bikes or put on a reflective vest to go run in the dark.  I personally believe it's a risk worth taking.

>That's an unfair characterization

A direct quote from earlier in the thread...

>I've been clawed, kicked in the face and stomach, pushed down, held back, swam over..anything can happen with 1500 or >more super strong athletes hell bent on getting the best time, swimming the course. would any of the swarm of triathletes >stop to help ? I wouldn't bet on it.

Three ideas I would throw out there for conversation.

First, I agree on the need to reduce the numbers of people in the water at the same time. I know that it reduces the competitive environment a little but having fewer people to watch would certainly make response times quicker. A lot of the races around here do a time trial start and it makes for a more comfortable swim knowing that you aren't going into the washing machine.

Another issue is drafting in the swim. This sport prides itself on it being an individual endurance event and won't allow you to draft on the bike but allows drafting during the swim. I think this is a rule change that needs to be made so that it is easier to identify the individual swimmers and recognize when someone is in trouble. If you are coming up on the feet of a fellow competitor then it is your responsibility to move a few feet away and give them room or get penalized. There should be no contact during the swim.

Finally I would suggest a narrower swim course. With fewer people starting at the same time and no drafting I think it would again be easier to identify who needs help by not spreading the swimmers out so far. This could easily be accomplished with more buoys in the water and not just turn buoys. These buoys should also be made so that people can go and hold onto them if they need help. 

One of the most common fears I hear from people beginning the sport is the open water swim. I think if we could take a few steps to make it safer then the sport will be more appealing to new people. Even without any changes though, I'm still going to swim. I know the risks involved every time I get into the water. I also know the risks when I ride or run out on the road. This is a dangerous sport and when you compete you assume the risks not only in the race but in training as well. On the other hand if we can make it a safer sport, I'm all for it.

Moderator Reply:

Yes, it's ok. The information Tom posted is from a publicly available LinkedIn profile.  It can be reasonably assumed that the victim made this information public himself. There's nothing disrespectful about discussing publicly available information. As a matter of fact, I can't see why his family wouldn't want this information known and recognized. Based on the items in that LinkedIn profile, he sounds like a pretty amazing guy. Makes the loss seem that much greater, but it indicates a life well lived and worth acknowledging.

So you want to eliminate contact, but yet make the swim narrower?   How is that going to work??

Additionally, this information was published in the Hong Kong media:

http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?we_cat=11&art_id=125315&sid=37341710&con_type=1&d_str=20120813&fc=10

Somewhat overwhelming thread here.

Sadness of another tri death.  And discussion about the individual who perished.  And discussion of possible methods to minimize swim risk (all still unproven BTW).   

Individual we lost has been discussed in much more depth on another tri forum.  What Tom posted was from person's public web posting.  From all accounts this was a very fit individual, although I have not seen much info on swim background.

I think we all agree that evidence suggests swim is statistically most hazardous portion of tri, and that overall risk is fairly low.  Multiple theories have been advanced (& argued), but none appear to point to a single issue in all cases.  Hopefully USAT's study will provide some clues to making our sport safer.

I have much less experience than many on BT, but IMHO tri swim can never be made 100% "safe".  I'm MOP/BOP swimmer so have experienced my share of disconcerting events. My 1st ever OWS (local sprint) I got into washing machine on 2nd turn.  Dunked, missed a few breaths, & got so disoriented I found myself swimming wrong way back UP the course.  Luckily- only serious injury was to my pride.  At B2B IM swim last fall I suffered a deep calf bruise that immediately locked up forcing me to tread water for a bit (& momentarily consider DNF).  Finished event (13+hrs) but subsequent medical exam (ultrasound) documented significant hematoma (bruise).  Glad swim was wetsuit legal as mild compression of the suit prob limited size of hematoma.

FWIW- I try get in warm-up swim if poss, or at least get wet (avoids theorized "shock" of initial immersion of face/head).  I try to really relax @ swim start (avoid "swim panic" claimed to affect even experienced OWS swimmers), then focus on smooth aerobic pace so I feel a could always miss a breath (or 3) without being in trouble.  I try to stay wide out of the way of faster swim packs. And when I get in traffic I deliberately alter my stroke to protect myself from potential blows from other swimmers- like covering my head as next swimmer arm strokes or going wide around a breast stroker.  No idea if any of this really helps reduce risk, but it seems to make my OWS swims easier & more enjoyable.

Exactly my point.  You took one quote from one poster and applied it to everyone that disagrees with you.  Hence, unfair characterization.

Why didn't you similarly take my post and say that everyone who doesn't want similar rules would stop and ask someone if they were OK, which I've done on at least two occasions?

I did  a race last October and it had all that you mentioned with the exception of no drafting and it was awesome. It was only a 600m swim though so much easier to do than an IM swim. They had volunteers on stand up paddle boards about every 6-8 feet on either side. The course was a U with each side being about the 200m and the kayaks and paddle board people created a channel about 30-40m wide. You could easily converse with the volunteers on either side and if you got into trouble they were literally right there. It was the best I've ever experienced. Many of the volunteers were a local ROTC unit.

This race had over 1200 competitors so it was a fairly large race. We started in age group waves every 3-4 minutes if I remember correctly, so it was about a 100 people each launch. I told my husband that you'd literally have to work hard to drown at this race. Now that's not to say you couldn't have a heart attack and die, but I really still think it would be strictly from the heart failure and not from drowning because someone couldn't get to you and get you in to the beach in time to get adequate help. Sometimes even with all that, the heart just can't be restarted.

I agree though that smaller groups out at a time, a narrower swim channel, and lots of kayaks, paddle boarders, boats etc. would seem like a good place to start.

Shelly

You of course get to define what is OK on this site.  I truly respect your role.

An alternative view might be based on this statement from someone who is apparently a close friend of the victim:

"I'd ask people to respect his family's wishes for privacy and to keep any personal information out of the public eye." 

Navigating the difficulties generated by the new reality of the web ('new' to those of us over the age of 30) is not easy, and this case is a good illustration.   Information that was put out there under one set of circumstances (vigorous, active, healthy, adult) might not best be promulgated under a radically different set of circumstances (deceased husband and father).  I, personally, reject the idea that any information made available publicly is always, under any circumstances, rightly repeated publicly.

Just some thoughts for consideration.

Dang, makes me not want to do an IM.

It is not terribly difficult to stay out of the fray if you want to.  Of course, the odd freak accident can occur (as it can crossing the street), but staying clear of the melee is not hard, if you wish to avoid it.

WTC sees an opportunity here!  VIP access to people that want to swim...

No, they won't. The primary determinant of accepetance of risk is ability absorb, or pay for that risk.  Which is deteriorating at this point, at least in the US, with the economic situation that enables it. The more brutal it gets, the more people looking for a free lunch, and filing lawsuits. And the lawyers are always willing to push that point, as that's how they're compensated.

The line only moves one way. That's reality.  

If people feel tarred by a general brush I'm sorry it was not my intent.

I'm really quite new here I'm just trying to throw out ideas about how one might mitigate risk IF the community wants to do that. I'm far too inexperienced to offer any  real suggestions I'm just tossing out wild ideas.....

I clearly stated  that no change was probably the most likely outcome...

Clearly there are a lot of considerate people that try to watch out for others and swim as gentlemen/women....

To paraphrase what I think I meant to say :Do we as a community want to look at the HTFU  attitude, at least for the swim,  I'm not pointing fingers at anybody I'm just asking if  looking at that attitude is something that might be worth while from a safety aspect.  

If you want to look at safety and risk there are a lot of industries that have spent a lot of time working that. Almost universally the most effective thing people can do is adapt a safety attitude.  That starts with open non confrontational communication...

Lighten up people.