Seen Vegucated? (or, a general question about Veganism)

I've seen the piece you mention although it was after I'd already stopped eating all meat/fish for ethical reasons. The environmental argument is a bit more complex on a global perspective, although less meat consumption and reforming factory farming would be a good thing IMO. I'm not quite vegan in terms of diet but close...there a few dairy items (ice cream is a biggie) that I still eat. And I've not taken the step of trying to eliminate leather (ie shoes etc) from my lifestyle. 

It really hasn't been that difficult for me to eat a plant-based diet although it was definitely gradual. I do find that getting adequate protein is a little more work (especially without dairy) but it's manageable. Also, I tend to relax a bit at friends/family gatherings. While they know I'm not going to partake in the burgers, I will eat/enjoy other things (ie deserts) that may have been prepared with eggs/dairy which I don't do at home. 

I know exactly what happens at farms and would slaughter a pig myself if it's the only way to get bacon. 

While I don't in any way encourage cruelty towards animals, I also don't feel any particular shame in killing animals for a purpose... whether it be food, materials (leather, etc) or population control (like deer)

Sitting at the top of the food chain means that we're responsible for managing the resources necessary for our continued existence.  For me, that means the responsible use and conservation of animals. I have no problem with that.

I hunt as well.  

I recall reading recently about a movement called sustenance hunting or subsistence hunting, can't recall which, that is growing. It includes a number of former vegans.

Nothing like a good venison roast fresh from the Pennsylvania woods.

Our freezer is full of wild caught fish and game. It's pretty time intensive to harvest that much protein in the wild. So of course the supplement comes from the store.

We try to eat as close to the source as possible with both animal protein and crops, but I don't see any ethical problems with modern methods of farming. Those methods have been a miracle really.  Perhaps some adjustments need to be made, but I wouldn't want to throw out the baby with the bath water.

I have not seen this, but having seen animals slaughtered firsthand, I crossed over and began educating myself.  Not to mention once you begin to look at all sentient beings as worthy of life, you can't possibly think about eating dead animals.  

Not to mention witnessing firsthand the amount of fish everyday served up in local farmer's markets for sale in every tiny little village in the cities I traipsed on a recent trip overseas.  Our oceans cannot possibly survive.  Americans however, are able to reach out to plenty of different food sources and should.

I will never begin to understand people that believe that somehow we're "entitled' to eat dead animals because we have higher thinking skills.  But be that as it may.

Read Timothy Pachirat's Every 12 Seconds:  Industrialized Slaughter and the Politics of Sight  As well as Eating Animals by Jonathan Safran Foer.  You will appreciate exactly how meat comes to the table in America.

Statistics bear out that factory farming -- how most meat arrives in America's grocery store -- is contributing to climate change.  Don't want to become vegetarian or vegan?  You will be forced to sooner or later, because we cannot possibly sustain this level of production.  

We have the right under natural law to eat animals. I don't know of any rational argument that shows otherwise.

It's not because we have higher thinking skills.  It's based in the fact that as human persons we are distinctly different in the order of creation.

If people choose not to eat animals, more power to them. Go for it. 

People who do eat animals though, are not acting immorally.  If anyone thinks otherwise, the burden of proof is on them to show why.

The moral question rests with our responsibility to be good stewards of the environment, to be conservationists and manage resources wisely.  Where the moral/immoral line for that resides is a matter of prudential judgement. People of good will may differ on the conclusion.

I haven't seen the piece cited in the OP but have seen/read documentaries, studies and books that support a plant-based lifestyle. And agreed with them.

I struggle with this, going back and forth in my opinion often.

I was some form of vegetarian/vegan for the better part of the last 10 years and recently introduced meat back into my diet (but eliminated dairy) as an experiment.

It feels weird.
But also tastes good and keeps me full.

I doubt I'll ever fall 100% on either side again (or judge anyone who does). Too many variables for me. 

There are many layers of this for me:  personal health, ethical treatment of animals, treatment of the environment.   I am avoiding the angle of personal hunting because for me, totally separate from this thread, I find it impossible to imagine.  Not a gun person, personally.  I understand that some species we are now rather obligated to hunt or there would be overpopulation.  Sad, but a problem I can't solve.  At least the animals people hunt in the wild aren't subjected to what I have seen in numerous documentaries.

I have been thinking about this all day and have decided that for now I am starting with a vegetarian diet.  My next step is to educate myself about ethical dairy farms in my area, which resolves my problems with the treatment of dairy cows.  It doesn't resolve my issue with greenhouse emissions or health issues, so therefore I am going to be cutting way back. I honestly don't have a lot of experience with soy milk, for instance.  I might like it.  I like other soy products.  I don't drink milk, but I am thinking more about cheese.

It's a big change and I am looking forward to being true to my heart. To those who have posted about their experiences, I appreciate it. Travljini, I will look into the book you referenced.

To Don Tracy:  The immoral issue at hand to me with the consumption of animals has to do with the treatment of the animals in slaughterhouses.  If you are not familiar, again, I suggest becoming familiar.  If you know what i am talking about, please go ahead and explain how it is NOT immoral to go along with these practices.  I am genuinely curious.   One more thought about this..  It's not the simple act of eating animals that's a problem (aside from the dietary and environmental issues, of course...), but the situation is that  - at least for me and virtually everyone I know - our meat is coming from a big farm.  As they say in the documentary, and I understand this, some people need to eat meat.  The average person who lives in a community with a supermarket is not included in this group.

Lisa: I appreciate your perspective of having tried different things.  I am going to be doing a lot of trying in the near future. I hope to find choices that are satisfying and nutritious. One friend warned me to not become a "carbivore."  I am not personally worried about that, although I do want to include a healthy portion of carbs in my diet, I appreciate the sentiment.   I don't eat a ton of meat now.

Regarding dietary veganism versus "total" (not buying leather, etc), that is also one I am thinking about.  Keeping responsible consumption in mind, I am not about to throw away all of my leather shoes... But I will be making more thoughtful choices in the future.

I am truly struggling with your statements that (1) you know what happens at these farms and (2) you don't in any way encourage cruelty towards animals.      How can you justify that? 

Also, animal meat is not necessary for our continued existence.

I find this particularly interesting considering you live in China. Have you heard of the China Study? You can look out your window and see that tehre are no problems, existence-wise, with a society with a largely plant-based diet!

I really didn't want to get into a fight about this, I wanted to partly educate and also get some anecdotes. But your response truly surprises me.

One last thing for tonight.  While I struggle with the concept of actually slaughtering an animal, even if there was a "humane" way to do it (and I have been fooling myself about this, mostly) my problem after watching this movie has to do with slaughterhouses.  The treatment of the animals is truly appalling. 

My intent was not to judge anyone, especially if they were honest about the situation. But I am struggling.

I've had occasion to work closely with hog farmers and turkey farmers have and been in and out of their facilities.  It's nasty stuff.  I still eat meat.  I think it speaks volumes about our quality of life that we could make some sort of conscientious objection to buying protein-laded, reasonably priced food that is always available in our grocery stores.  Not that there's anything wrong with that.

If you are a deer, a duck, a goose, a wild pig, a rabbit, a wild turkey, or any other animal that I consider tasty your life is in danger during hunting season.  I will kill you, butcher you, and eat you if I have room in my freezer. 

If you are a fish of almost any kind, and I can catch you, I will, and I will butcher you and eat you as well.  In fact....don't be "of the water" if you don't want to be eaten by me....I love seafood/shellfish of all and any kinds, but I'm particular to those that I can catch, kill, and eat immediately....it just tastes better.

In fairness, if you are a morel mushroom, a blackberry, a mulberry, a wild onion, a walnut, or any other tasty fruit, vegetable, nut, or fungus that grows wild, I will pick you and eat you as well.

Eating food that grows/lived wild is the best eating on the planet as far s I'm concerned.

Yes, I've been inside a slaughter house.  I have picked beef as it hangs to go in my freezer....and I enjoy eating it.  Poultry houses are nasty.....but I love beer-can chicken so what can I do?  Pig farms are just a stinky mess....but a few slabs of baby-back ribs on the smoker in the summer while I enjoy a beer and watching my kids swim is just about unbeatable....so I forget the smell of a hog farm.

I'm a non-discriminate eater who loves good food.  I don't want to live without meat/fish.....and I don't want to live without fruits and vegetables...so I don't.

I was raised hunting, killing, butchering, and eating animals, fish, and fowl.  I'm good with it.

That being said, BikerGrrrl, I understand that some people struggle with it.  My own son won't shoot a deer.....he says he just can't.  I get it, it's not a problem for us, and I've never made it an issue.  I find it funny that he'll eat them, but he's really not old enough to have that discussion with yet. (I suspect I'll lose that one anyway, that kid is NOT going to shoot an animal, this I know)  I guess my point is that there are many perspectives....and it can be complicated to some people.  But for others.....not so much. 

1. What happens at "these farms."  I have no doubt that there are some appalling and cruel conditions at some farms.  I also know that there are farms where the animals are cared for and then when it comes time to get the meat, they're put down in the quickest and most painless way available.    To be honest, it doesn't matter that much to me.   I don't believe that animals are "sentient" (whatever that means) and as long as you're killing them as quickly as possible and feeding them regularly and taking care of their basic needs, then I'm not all that concerned about it. All of the farmers I know that raise livestock are caring and genuine people. They are conscientious and care for their animals well.  I'm aware that there are other kinds of farmers out there. 

I "justify that" by knowing that cruelty doesn't reside in someone's actions, it resides in their state of mind.   Two people shoot a beef cow in the head with a shotgun.  One is a slaughterhouse worker, who aims carefully and is attempting to instantly kill the cow.   One is just doing it to watch a cow die.  To me, only one of these people is being cruel. 

There are lots of things that are "not necessary" for our continued existence, but improve the quality of our lives.  Let's face it:  You can "exist" on water and berries and grubs that you dig up yourself. I prefer a diet that uses meat as a primary protein source. I am completely OK with people "existing" on whatever they want to eat. 

I've not heard of the China Study.  I will say that my N=1 experience is that everyone I know here eats meat at every meal.  Not in the same quantities as the US, but it's clearly a staple.   In fact, the meat sections in the grocery stores here occupy a larger percentage of the grocery store than they do in the west... largely because of the many varieties of fish that are available (and readily consumed)  I would venture a guess that people in China are not eating meat because they can't afford it, and not because they don't want it.    The traditional Chinese New Year food (the pork and leek dumpling) actually came into existence because meat was so cherished (and so expensive) in the Chinese diet.  Most families could only afford to have meat once a year.  

I can walk into any supermarket, or any street market, and find cuts of meat from cow, pig, chicken, duck and donkey. If I knew where to look, I'm sure I could get cat and dog as well. There are so many types of fish (alive and dead) that my head spins.  You don't have to spend too long on the 4th ring road before you will see an unrefrigerated minivan race by with several sides of beef hanging inside.   If you see Arabic writing on the side, you know the beef is good, because they are very meticulous when it comes to processing their beef.

So no, I can't "look out my window and see" the all-singing, all-dancing benefits of a plant-based diet. :^)

I'm not trying to fight with you.   If you notice my reply, it did not condemn your choice (or anyone's choice) of food.   You asked if people had seen what happened (I've not seen the movie referenced, but I know that there are places where animals are mistreated) and still proceeded eating meat.   I responded in the affirmative.  I don't expect you to agree with me, I don't want you to agree with me, and I don't want to try to shame, trick, or force you into eating meat.   I just wanted to tell you that I can be aware of the treatment of some animals and still relish my steak and chicken fajitas.

The question of moral judgement regarding the use of animals has to do with its impact on humans, not on the animals.  All moral questions have to do with human persons.

You may have a valid argument about the treatment of animals in most slaughterhouses being immoral, but only if it's framed in terms of how that degrades the human person.

Animals themselves do not have an innate right to life or liberty.  If slaughterhouses bring about a good for human persons, then the treatment of animals there is moral.  If they degrade the human person, then conditions there may in fact be immoral.

Does that make sense?

To speak to hunting, I understand the emotional line you must cross in order to take an animal's life.  Every hunter I know values the life of the game they kill. Often, they understand the life cycle and nature of these animals more than someone who is anti-hunting.  There is a connection that an ethical hunter has with the animal being hunted and killed that is quite profound. 

I raise my children to harvest fish and game.  One reason for that is so they can understand the connection we have to our food.  They understand that animal protein comes from a live animal, not from a store.

From an early age they've cleaned freshly caught fish.  They've seen a fish's heart still beating and have held it in their hands.  They understand from that how precious the life of that fish is.  Then back at home, they are eager to care for the fish and reptiles that we keep as pets.  The fishing experience enhances the care they show for our pets.

My now 11yo harvested his first squirrels this past season.  He had worked hard for a couple of years before he accomplished this. He had to learn about squirrel behavior, how to scout for them, regulations around seasons and harvests. He had to practice marksmanship in order to take a squirrel cleanly and quickly. He had to learn patience.  There are no drive through windows at a fast food restaurant if you want to eat squirrel. You have to put time into it. Walk through the woods.  Learn to see and listen with the eyes and ears of a hunter, which means with patience. All good lessons for a young child.

At school in the play yard, he's the kid who gets other kids to stop throwing stones at squirrels or "play shooting" them. He brings a maturity to his age mates about how to treat animals because he understands them better than his age mates.  That includes age mates who come from families that think hunting is immoral.

The 11yo is ready and wanting to deer hunt this next season.  That's a bigger responsibility due to the more complex aspects of the hunt, but I'll work with him on that.  It could take a number of seasons before he's successful at harvesting a deer.

I'm told anecdotally that since the Hunger Games there are a growing number of young girls who want to learn to hunt.  If true, I think that's terrific.  Hunting and fishing bring us closer to the animals we love and to a deeper understanding of the fragility of the environment they live in.

Back to your question, I would encourage everyone to visit a slaughterhouse.  It's important to understand where your food comes from. I've done that and will continue to eat meat and poultry that comes from them.  If I could only eat wild caught fish and game I would, but it's just not possible.  The taste and quality is just better from the wild, but it would be a full time job to harvest enough to feed my family animal protein that comes only from the wild.  

 I have not seen Vegucated because some co-workers have
described the movie in some detail. I am not one of those peeps who will make a
life changing decision based on a documentary (because of possible bias).

 With that being said:

 I recommend watching FAT, SICK AND NEARLY DEAD. After 45 minutes
into the movie I started getting a lil pi$$y because of the attitude of regular
Americans and their horrible, horrible diets. AND knowing that I will have to
support them one way or another (because of their poor life choices) through
MEDICARE.

I guess that’s why laziness would be one of my #1 pet peeves.

Don, a question about your views re morality only applying to humans....do you apply this concept to all animals? What about pets? Cats, dogs, horses? They aren't any different really than the animals that society chooses for food....and some societies would consider horses/dogs etc food animals. Asking out of genuine curiosity.

I don't eat meat/fish by choice. I also understand that in many ways, that choice is a luxury. In many societies a goat/pig/cow can mean survival for a family. I would encourage those that make similar meat free choices based upon assumed environmental impact to carefully educate themselves. Going to Whole Foods and buying tofu or soy protein powder that has been shipped in plastic containers across country has more adverse impact to the environment than locally harvested meat. 

OKay, here's the segment from the movie that outlines factory farming practices.  This is what I am talking about (not hunting, not the family farm down the road necessarily).   I believe this is where the average grocery store meat comes from:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihxs0I97Tek

I just feel like I am not describing my grievance appropriately. This is the sort of treatment I find disturbing enough to warrant some deep thought if not life changes.

I had a few questions about this definition of morality, too.  My definition of morality does not limit itself to humans.

Regarding your point:  Going to Whole Foods and buying tofu or soy protein powder that has been shipped in plastic containers across country has more adverse impact to the environment than locally harvested meat. They talk about this in the movie, and I have also seen this outlined in other sources.  This is a common misconception.  The processes required to house/feed and later slaughter the animals, refrigerate the meat, electricity for machinery, etc, and the actual methane that animals produce is significant enough that even if you buy locally it's still a problem and greater than the resources used to grow and harvest soybeans.   Now I suppose there's a set of circumstances where this is not true, but that's basically what I am hearing.

All animals.

Take for example, dogs.

I love dogs. Our vizsla died in June of old age. It was painful to lose that dog. We just picked out a new Springer Spaniel puppy this past weekend. We'll bring her home in a couple of weeks.

I will treat that dog well. She will live in our household as an animal with a uniquely symbiotic relationship with us as humans.  She will at times seem almost human in her emotional complexity.  I'll spend time communicating with her, learning her particular personality, teaching her about mine and my requirements of her.  I will do everything to have her be a happy dog.  And I will mourn when she finally dies some dozen or more years out.

I will not eat her.

However, there are cultures where the relationship with dogs is different. They do eat dogs in those cultures. I have no problem with that.

Animals are amoral creatures. They do not have free will. The do not have immortal souls. They are not capable of engaging in a moral act.  Morality does not apply in the animal world.

Humans have immortal souls. We have free will. We are created Imago Dei, in the image and likeness of God. That means that our acts have a moral component to them.

How we treat animals has a moral component as so far as it affects other human persons and our relationship with God.  Whether our act is moral or immoral has no bearing on the animal itself.

It may in fact be immoral to utilize modern slaughterhouse methods.  You'd need to show that. I don't think it does, but I could be wrong.  I think modern forms of farming and animal husbandry are a good, and therefore moral.  There may be aspects that can be shown need correction in order to preserve the good for future human persons. That's worth looking at.

Yes, animals may feel pain from our acts. That in itself is not immoral.

You don't have to buy your meat/fowl/fish from a grocery store where you perceive these animals end up. (I agree, that's probably pretty standard) 

You'll have to pay a bit more, but you can buy those foods from a farm that lines up more with your beliefs....it takes a bit more time, it's not as convenient, so you'll need to be equipped to keep larger quantities on hand, but it's relatively easy to do. We buy all of our beef and pork that way.

I'm not bothered by that clip.....it's food.