Seen Vegucated? (or, a general question about Veganism) (Page 2)

I've watched many of the docs and this one was the most graphic for me. I had been toying with vegan/vegetarianism for a while. I decided to go mostly vegan recently when I realized that dairy was having a negative effect on me so I decided to try taking out all animal products.

I'm doing this primarily for health reasons because I do think there is a humane way to raise and kill animals for consumption. If/when I decide to eat meat again, it will only be from a local source where animals are treated, raised, and killed humanely/safely (this applies to the animal and the farmer or worker).

I think everyone has different reasons for changing their dietary habits- my friend t is doing so because of her RA and fibromyalgia. However you decide to approach it- ethics, health, monetary- I think it's worth a try, even to incorporate a few veg days a week.

I have noticed a significant improvement in my workouts, my energy and more; and I know I'm doing the planet some good at the same time.

Kris Carr is a great resource- www.kriscarr.com- her Crazy, Sexy Kitchen cookbook has been really helpful. Also, if you are looking for athlete inspiration, look to Scott Jurek. He's a vegan ultra runner.

I think you're doing a pretty good job describing your grievance.  I'm guessing you just can't believe that if someone were to know what you know, that they could possibly come to a different conclusion.  I will say this, we have animals (pets) that we love in our family.   I absolutely adore my dog and would return the favor to anyone who even thought about hurting her.  My parents have raised cattle (free range, not like your video) and we fed them and pet them and played with them, and named them, and then we killed and ate them.  And they tasted good.  The sad fact is that you CAN NOT feed people on the mass scale with highly concentrated urban centers like we live in without what you see in that video.  There is no other way to mass produce life.  Is it sad?  Yes.  Is it ugly, horrible, and everything that is wrong with this world? I'm overstating a bit, but yes.  Then look at your factory farming.  Where do you draw the line?  Don't make me use the broccoli argument!!!!!  Seriously though plants may also feel "pain" (definition according to IASP: An unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage) in a clinical sense. Plants are most definitely alive, so is your objection the death or the treatment before death?  Maybe you want to consider a raw diet?

As Leftbrain said, there are other ways to get meat if it's the treatment before the death that disturbs you.  Frankly I also wonder if supporting that particular business model might actually do more good than boycotting the other?  If the industry sees money flowing to the more humanely treated animals then they will throw their money at that business model also.  Just look at the proliferation of organic foods in recent years.

For me personally, I like meat and I like to eat it and I, for a while, tried to go the humane route.  I flat out couldn't afford it.  I had too many other responsibilities, so I know it happens and when I get hungry, I eat anyway.  Just like when I down a bird that is flopping around on the ground in terrible pain because I just put a bunch of BBs in it, I pop it's head off and throw in my back pouch and move on to the next one.  I don't think a lion ever thought about her next meal's feeling before she ate him.  I don't like cruelty to animals any more than the next guy.  But the best I can do now is free range chicken at the store.  If I could afford the other stuff I would.

The logic is a bit flawed, don't you think? If we are to believe that learning about food practices would impact people that much, wouldn't the people who work in food production be impacted? And if they were impacted, wouldn't they stop working in that industry? And if people stopped working in that industry, wouldn't that industry cease to exist?

I'll grant that more people would consider vegan lifestyles if more people really knew about food production, and especially animal products, but "could anyone... not become a vegan" is way too broad a brush.

I have not seen the original documentary mentioned, but have seen other documentaries, read books/articles on the subject. I have shifted my eating habits based on these, but haven't gone over to full on veganism/vegetarianism.

My meat intake has decreased quite a bit over the last couple years, but I still probably have something with meat in it 4-6 times a week. I also try and make sure the meat I eat comes from a "one bad day farm."

In my work, I've become too familiar with how chicken goes from egg to plate.  I don't eat chicken anymore.  Besides, boneless skinless chicken breast shouldn't be the size of a porterhouse.

I've seen Forks over Knives and some others and made a switch to "mostly vegan."  I still will buy cheese and beef shares from a farmer's market, and have even met the locals who produce it.  As for seafood?  I just don't ever see being able to totally give up crawfish, oysters, speckled trout, redfish, flounder, or shrimp.  I'm too much of a misplaced Gulf Coastie for that.  On the other hand, big business farming isn't exactly better than big business meat production, only that something that has babies isn't killed.  I do make a conscious effort to buy mostly from farmers markets, but I do have to big box it for some things.  I'm just not gonna find chayote squash or daikon radish at the market.

I do notice a lot of benefits to decreasing my meat consumption.  Overall I just feel better, and I've shed some pounds even with my workout routine being nil thanks to a new baby.  I've also become a much better cook.  Working with new ingredients, new spices, new techniques, and new ethnic dishes.  It's been a lot of fun.

Anyway, I saw an interview of Anthony Bourdain by Neil deGrasse Tyson... yes, pure awesomeness.  One of the questions was about how healthy the people were in many places he went on No Reservations.  He flat out believes it's because that even though they do eat meat, most of their diet grows in the ground.  What meat they do eat is raised themselves and slaughtered themselves.  Not to mention that they eat every last bit of the animal or use it for some other useful purpose.  He said that if an American had to kill a pig or cow they'd raised from birth, they'd eat a whole lot less meat.

Not THIS American, and not any beef or pig farmer I know either. 

I think a balanced diet is the key. 

I eat meat....I will always eat meat. We also eat a ton of turkey, chicken,  fish, fresh fruit, vegetables, nuts, and beans.  

You absolutely DON'T have to buy your meat from sources you are not comfortable with.  I'd rather eat a steak from a cow that had a name, like this one from last night.

(steak.jpg)

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Grew up raising 3 or 4 calves every 18 months.  We kept one and sold the others by the side.  My dad was a cop and as soon as he put the notice up in the breakroom that they were ready to be butchered there was a stampede to his office.  The local butcher brings his truck out and takes care of everything.  He then cuts and wraps to specification.

We also had one or two pigs at a time.  When you name them Pork Chop, Ribeye or T-Bone, you know exactly what they are going to be in 18 months.

I was raised with 4-H and had animals for fun (horses, goats, rabbits, parrots, dogs, cats and guinea pigs) but we also had pigs, steers and sheep for food.

I switched FROM a near-vegan diet in 2011.

The entire U.S. factory farming system disturbs me.  The CAFO aspect of it bothered me enough that I stopped eating meat in 2005, except a small amount of fish, plus maybe one or two meals a year of pastured meat.

But after 6 years of that, I was at a plateau in my weight and health and made some tentative steps towards eating paleo.  At first that meant CUTTING grains entirely, reducing the legumes, and adding significant amounts of animal protein from pastured meats and eggs and some wild-caught fish.  Now most of my protein comes in those sources, plus a little venison when I can get my hands on any.  Those proteins plus lotsa veggies, some fruit, nuts, and fats like avocado and olive are 90% of my diet.

This is a delicious, healthy, and wildly expensive way to live.  I am healthier and am still conscious of not supporting the industry whose practices I find objectionable.  In fact, I probably support the industry LESS by not eating grain-based cereal for breakfast every day (though, given local drought conditions, some of my pastured meats are fed grains as a supplement.  So it may come out a wash.)

This is only to say: recognizing that the food production industry is a problem does not necessarily mean going vegan.

Of course, I do still generously support industrialized food production with my tax dollars.  How 'bout them subsidies?

This is where I'm at as well.

Ha, I'm guessing it's not any easier to eat out on this philosophy in Kansas than in OKC. That's the trickiest part.  In my own kitchen, it works great, but at restaurants, much tougher! 

We have the right under natural law to eat animals. ...........................It's based in the fact that as human persons we are distinctly different in the order of creation.

IMO, the only reason that humans have evolved to our current state is the fact that our thumb can touch our other digits.  Beyond that, there is absolutely no difference between us and the animals that you eat.  I honestly do not intend to be insulting, but I find the attitude of many who subscribe to creationism to be rather arrogant. 

You left off part of what I wrote in your quote.

I don't know of any rational argument that shows otherwise.

What I wrote has nothing to do with creationism.

Is the full extent of your argument that we somehow differ from animals only in that we have opposable thumbs?

Is the full extent of your argument that we somehow differ from animals only in that we have opposable thumbs?

Well, there is at least ONE difference.......I'm smart enough to not let them eat me and they aren't. 

Only because you have evolved in a different manner.

Ok, but it goes alot further than me being able to touch my index finger and my thumb. 

Do you eat meat?  Just curious. 

I'm a pescatarian.  That is strictly a personal choice.  My wife and daughters eat meat and I have never discouraged it.  Some animals are carnavores, including humans, so I have no problem with those who make that choice...keeping in mind that it is a choice. 

I absolutely agree that it's a choice, and I've got no quarrel with folks who don't eat meat.  

How did you come to the decision to not eat meat, other than fish.....again, I'm just curious.

I stopped eating all meat (including fish) in 1978.  That was the same time that I got into running.  I started it to see if there were any health benefits (there were) and for ethical reasons.  Was a strict vegetarian until the early 80s when I started doing tris.  For numerous reasons, I felt that my diet might be hindering my performance/health and started eating fish again.  Eating fish does bother me somewhat, but I feel that consuming fish provides positive health benefits.  I'm not a fanatic about it, just suits me and my beliefs.

Gotcha.  I couldn't imagine not eating meat.  I have no idea if it owuld benefit me, healthwise, to not eat it.  I'm nearly in my mid 50's and my cholesterol and other blood numbers are always in the low range.....no digestive issues at all. (I give credit there to a lfietime of exercise)  I LOVE me a big juicy steak, or a rack of ribs, or a big hunk of salmon, or turkey, or just about any animal you put in front of me.  We buy almost all of our meat/poultry from local folks who raise the animals to sell themselves.  I can see all of my beef/pork before it's butchered so I know what I'm eating. We also eat quite a bit of wild game. 

Funny thing, one of my twin daughters will hardly ever eat meat....she says that she doesn't like the texture.  No big deal.......she's a good eater otherwise and doesn't seem any more or less healthy than her identical sister who will fight you for a pork chop.

OK.

Do you believe in natural rights?

I don't know where you live, but the Unite States was founded on the notion that there are inalienable natural rights, such as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Do you believe that?

If not, where do we get our rights from?

If so, does it follow then that a mouse for example and a human being have the same inalienable natural rights?

Great.....now we'll end up with "the" mouse thread. 

That's not insulting, it's laughable.

Exactly!

Here's the thing that concerns me about this subject.  I think it's fine if people want to eat and promote vegan for perceived health reasons or even if they have a sound and consistent argument for resource conservation.  I'm all for protecting the air, water, land, ect.

What I've picked up on though from vegan friends, family, acquaintances is this notion that somehow animals rights that are the same or similar to human persons.  That's a very dangerous notion.  My experience is that they usually have not really thought it through and base it mostly on emotions that come from seeing or thinking about cute animals being killed.

It's dangerous because if you follow it to it's conclusion, you'd have to reduce and/or limit human rights for it to work in the real world. Very often, people will slip into classical arguments for eugenics. Perhaps they'll do this unknowingly.  I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.  The eugenics takes the form of them wanting to reduce the human population by coercive means. I've yet to meet a vegan who is also not in support of abortion rights. Maybe I'll meet one here. 

Whenever animal rights are trumpeted as something important, it follows that human rights are at risk.

I haven't seen the film Vegucated, only the trailer now and the clip that was linked to.  However from the trailer and the clip, it looks to be a film in the classic line of propaganda films that rely on manipulating the emotions as a method to achieve their end.

Perhaps the first of this style of filming that promoted so called animal rights is Georges Franju's Blood of the Beasts. Franju always claimed that he was just a documentary filemaker coming at his work like a dadaist, but given that later films of his attacked capitalism and the military, it's pretty easy to see where he was coming from, especially in post war leftist France.

Pro animal rights is ultimately anti human when reduced to its essence.  It's another example of the centuries old heresy of Manichaeism raising it's head again.

I'll clarify the point he was making.  Overall, as a society, we'd eat less beef.  When you grew and then slaughtered a cow, you aren't going to cut out the tenderloin, a few porterhouses, a few strips, and then toss the rest away.  The problem comes in to play when meat becomes a package on a grocery shelf.  We don't see it as a whole cow, just a delicious looking cut.  For example, we want more ribeyes or sirloins so we slaughter enough cows in big production to meet that need.  Nevermind the rest of the animal.  If you owned and killed the entire cow, you'd eat the entire thing, providing many, many, many, many meals on one animal.  Might even get you through a year.  As it stands with production today, people are responsible for eating the meat from who knows how many animals because they like a certain type of steak.  For them, it's not an animal, it's a grocery product.  That's where big production steps in and that's where I see the problem.  Most people are comfortable with not even thinking of what they are eating as a former living being.  So, they buy bulk chicken breasts, along with many others, and that means a whole lot of chickens are slaughtered for one cut.  Chicken breast has become more or less a can of beans.

As an aside, my favorite cut of beef is the cheek.  You can have all the tenderloin or ribeye you want.