Zone 2 sucks (Page 4)

You're def running too slow - you don't have your zones set up right or didn't test it right.

If your 5k is really @ 7:05mpm for a 22ish 5k, Mcmillan calc (which is pretty decent at estimating z2 training paces for long runs) is about 8:15-9:32, not 10:00 (use their 'long run' pace). Even the Mcmillan recovery pace doesn't each get to 10:00 (it gets to 9:58).

Z2 really shouldn't be about intentionally running slow - it's not like that at all. It's more a matter of not pushing hard so you can thus train more volume and run farther. A run at upper z2 will actually feel pretty challenging if you're maintaining it on the longer workouts, like 60+ or 90+ mins even if it feels a bit easy early on.

If you find yourself unnaturally slowing your pace and stride down just to stay in "z2", and you're not a pretty new runner that isn't acclimating to running, you're undertraining and need to retest or reevaluate your paces. It's likely your z2 is a lowball compared to where it should be.

Noticed the comment from the poster who's run at fairly elite levels and it got me thinking about my training when I was running at my fastest. I was one of the slower athletes training with a group of pretty high-level runners, all Olympic Trials qualifiers at distances from 5,000m to marathon, and also the youngest, so I did less mileage than most (usually 80-90 mpw). I don't think we ever did more than 20%-25% of this at high intensity. That would involve maybe a 8-10-mile tempo run on one day, plus another two workouts with maybe 5-6 miles each of running at race pace or faster (i.e. out of zone 2). And this would be really a peak training week, not during base building. Others ran more mileage but we all did similar speed work together, so their % might have been even lower than mine.

The rest would probably be Zone 2--I didn't have a HRM but those were runs that I did at a comfortable pace without pushing it, definitely conversational, often on trails with a buddy. That was enough to get me a 17:03 5K, 35:02 10K, 2:43 marathon on a hot, hilly course, and 1:16:40 half.

Those were the days--all I had to do was train, take a minimal class load, sleep, and eat large quantities of pasta!  I know I should run more easy miles now to improve--not just in terms of base-building but build up the resilience to handle more intensity, but as a triathlete and full-time teacher, it's so hard to fit everything in and get some sleep!

I have Garmin data for both runs--I'll spend some time today figuring out how to post it.  I've never done that.

I've been running for >20 years, with 3 brief non-running periods when I was pregnant.  I am built like a sprinter and was one, but then gravitated to long distance running for fitness and therapy:)

I was using HR for Z2, which would put me in the 144-152 range.  However, looking at the McMillan calc above, I would say that would be MUCH more comfortable.  For runs of >8miles I probably hang out in the 7:50-8:15 avg, so slowing that down a bit would probably feel just fine.  The 10min/mile stuff just felt horrible.  Yesterday was the first hot day we've had too; I'm thinking that may have played a bigger role in the crappy-run feeling equation.

I didn't have my foot pod on yesterday, but my cadence is almost always right on--87 is the lowest read I've had, and I think I've been as high as 94, but my avg for runs is usually 90 on the nose.

OK...I'll see if I can get the Garmin thing sorted.

Thanks guys.

OK, I got the runs uploaded April 30--crappy feeling Zone 2 run, April 28--5K.  I also uploaded one From Feb 16th (a week before the race that pushed me into my "overreaching" period and before I got my low iron diagnosis) just as a point of reference.  I did notice that my cadence was a little higher on that run, but I'm guessing that was due to snow/ice on the road.

Any feedback or insight into a good Z2 strategy would be much appreciated.

Use the pace zones from your recent 5k.  Frankly, I wouldn't bother with HR.  But, if you want to use it, for now just monitor where it lands during your runs (which you can run based on pace and RPE).  Staying towards the slower end of the pace ranges may make sense as you 're-start' your running.  You'll probably find yourself moving to the faster end of the zones within a few weeks (maybe even a bit faster if that recent 5k isn't a great gauge of your fitness).

• Field LT Test article
• BT HR Zone Calculator article
• The thread/FAQ; HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! (basis of the Field LT article

Yes, it wasn't per that article, but it was a field test just like that, and from that my LT was 170 (I'm a 39 year old woman), but maybe I didn't push myself hard enough?  Based on this last 5K, it looks like my LT could be 176, which would bump that Z2 to 150-160, and that certainly would feel better.

I can just use the HR from my 5K race on Sunday, right?  That's what that 3.16 was.  (I didn't stop my watch right after the finish, but it's close enough.)  I haven't checked out the Jack Daniel's Pace Calculator, but I'll do that.

I would say that the 186bpm from my 5K is my MHR (again, 39yo F), so I feel comfortable using that. 

That's interesting about the wide Z3 range.  I'm guessing that's where I've been doing >90% of my runs, darn it.  I'm willing to give this a go, but the 10min/mile thing for my heart rate yesterday was absurd, and I just kept thinking, "How in the world is this going to make me a better runner?" But hearing stories like yours, about how you really had to slow down at first--and even walk--is reassuring.  I should have walked some hills yesterday to keep my HR down in Z2, but my pride would just not allow it;)

Thanks for all the info and feedback.

Unless the hill is REALLY long, don't walk it.  Just make that a harder portion of your run.  Z3 is not evil.  You just want to keep the bulk of your running in z2 so you are able to run more.  Hills are good for you. 

But, generally, get to be a better runner.  Running evenly is a skill that is best practiced on flatter terrain as you noted.  But hilly running is generally a good thing for runners of all levels.  And always running evenly is not at all critical to building run fitness.  Embrace the hills. 

This is the part I keep smiling at--I'm already at 40-50mpw.  So now I'm gonna slow down and increase my miles.  Totally cool with that, in theory, it's just that if I go with the shoot to increase my mileage by 20% idea, that takes me to 60mpw.  That's 10 new miles + the time difference on the first 50.  It's another 2-3hours of running/week on a training schedule that's already pushing 16/week.  Whine, whine, whine :) Has anybody figured out how to get more than 24 hours out of day yet?

And the hill stuff is helpful.  So bumping into Z3 on hills will not be undermining the Z2 idea?  A lot of my favorite runs have lots of hills (I've always liked hills, but they're Iowa hills, not Colorado "hills"). 

No, you're not going to spontaneously combust if you occasionally touch into Z3. What you don't want is the bulk getting into Z3, so by keeping it *mostly* in Z2 you are keeping the bulk out of Z3. You don't have to hit Z3, but it's not necessarily a problem if you do for a little bit. Do watch that you come back down out of Z3 after getting up the hill, as there can be a tendency to keep pushing after it flattens.

What brigby said above on the z3 and hills part.

On the other point, if you get to the point where you no longer have time to devote to running 'more', then you can run 'harder'.  But, rather than doing lots of your running in z3, you would still generally be better off doing most of your running in z2 and pushing z4/5 for smaller pieces of time.  Add a tempo run.  Do some hill repeats.  Occasionally so some shorter, even harder stuff.  Training load is what you really want 'more' of (over time).  This can (and should) be a combination of volume and intensity.  Just be careful not to add too much of both at the same time (usually better to cut back one slightly, at least initially, as you increase the other).  Miles is simply running shorthand for how much you are running.  But two people doing the same mileage may be getting very different training stimulii.

OK, sounds reasonable. FWIW, I had been doing long runs in Z3/Z4 (based on HR), but I also routinely did tempo, intervals, and short speed work (I had worked back up to this after my last baby, but have been there for the last 6 months).  So the intensity and volume were there.  I am very curious to see how I'll do scaling the intensity of the long runs down.  I may need to shoot for a happy medium on the time/intensity spectrum.

I think one of the reasons I have pushed the intensity of runs so much in the past is because those are the runs that give me the "high".  There the ones that feel so good when you're done.  I have the same problem on the bike and am just starting to have it in the pool.  I feel a little sheepish writing it, but it is kinda like getting a "fix".  That run I did yesterday had no good post-run feeling.  Does that eventually come with the Z2 runs?

It soulds like you simply had too much intensity.  Not enough time to recover from all that load.

Z2 running doesn't lend itself to the "high" I think you are looking for, as that generally comes from pushing yourself towards your limit.  By definition, most of your running should end with you feeling like you could keep going and you won't be at that point.  Think of them as your 'support' runs that allow you to go for that high every now and then.  But keep those as a "treat" and don't try to get too much of a good thing. 

Haha, OK.  See, I knew I needed a support group;)

Thanks for being so patient with all the questions guys.

Schedule more runs.

Only partly kidding.  You'll be much better off if you can run more frequently--even if you can only do so for parts of the year.  But, otherwise, nothing much changes.  You should still typically do most of your running in z2 and then push z4/5 when you do run harder.  But you probably won't be able to support too much of that kind of running without getting injured, so you'll just have to be much more patient in seeking progress with your running.  Or schedule more runs.

I started doing my zone 2 stuff last fall after the tri season. I only focused on running and I ran 6-7 days a week. Now that I am back tri training I am only do 4-5 runs a week. I usually do 3,6,3,6,10. If I have some extra free time I will do another 3. I think the important thing is to build a good base in the off season so you can balance all three sports during the tri season and not lose your running fitness.