Bike ability vs Running ability (Page 2)

Jason - just for fun I looked at a few years of XC times for high schoolers in my state....not exactly a running hotbed. In 2012 over 400 kids ran sub 18:00.......30 ran sub 16:00....over 100 were under 17:00.  Obviously only a few of those kids are at the top of the state....and likely none are near the top of the nation.  I'd also be willing to bet that virtually none of them have been running 50+ miles per week for years.

True runners are born....period.  Yes, a very small percentage can get down in that area as adults with no running background....but even then you are talking about people who could have ran even faster as a kid.

I help work with about a dozen boys who are very good triathletes.....about half of them at the elite level for their age.  Every one of them ran a 5:00 mile (give or take 6-10 seconds in either direction) by the time they were 14.  None of them trained running more then a few days a week to do it.  Most of them were products of swim programs so they did have a pretty big engine to draw on, but not all.  Born runners.

LB, I think you're probably right that most people who can already run sub 18 are just naturally gifted and don't run that much.

But if we're talking about the average person who is not born with great running genes, it is not unrealistic to attain a sub 18 goal with a lot of running.  It's just that you don't see many amateurs (myself included) willing to put in the hard work required to get there given that you don't have the genes.  That doesn't mean it's not possible though.  The poster asked a question of how to get from a 23 min 5k (a sign of a decent runner, but without great running genes) and get to 18 min.  I was simply advising that poster on what it would take to get there...but again, you're probably right that most of the people running sub 18 don't run that much...but running less isn't the reason why they're fast.

Yes, no doubt your point is well made....but I think THOSE are the outliers, not the majority of people who can really run.  For  mostof us, our bodies couldn't take the work that's needed, day in and day out like you and Jason point out, without breaking down.

Most sub 18'ers and surely, as Jason points out, sub 16'ers are not made....they were just genetically born to run easier, and faster.

That's a peculiar view for one of the founders of the 30 Runs In 30 Days challenge.

Not really....running every day has many benefits, and getting faster is certainly one of them.  But getting faster and being able to run16-18 minute 5K's is a different ballgame altogether.

I'll stand by my statements......the overwhelming majority of people will never run a 16-18 minute 5K no matter how much they run.  Likewise, the overwhelming majority of people who CAN run that fast have always been fast, and could always run....genetics plays a much bigger role than anything else when it comes to running fast.  Sure there is work to be done....but I think most people would be shocked at how little some of these fast folks, especially the young ones, actually run.

Great job....and I would certainly call you an outlier and disagree that the AVERAGE person can get to that level.  If they could, an 18:00 5K would be average.....and it's not even in the ballpark of average for a 5K.

You are right....it does not take special genetics to learn to run 70 mpw.....but it takes special genetics to run fast.  I guess we can debate whether or not 18:00 is actually fast....but I think what you'll see it an outcry that 18:00 is smoking fast....because most people can never get there.

ETA - I think your last paragraph is absolutely on the mark.

Right, not that many really reach 70 mpw, let alone average that for any length of time. Not that many do it for 50 even, which is what was posted before. And (continuing some other items from previous posts) the post that triggered this discussion wanted to get to 18, which I take as 18.xx. Not sub 18, certainly not 16. The point about the 30 days challenge was that was one develops into being able to run a much bigger volume, and how to do so. I honestly don't know if 18-19 would become "average" if that volume was reached by the majority, but that speed would certainly become substantially more common.

#1 - most of thyem would break down.

#2 - we're talking sub 18.....not 20.

I agree with your last sentence. That's what makes you a better runner.......but most people can't get under 18....including, apparently, you.  I don't mean that to be snarky at all, and I know it probably comes across that way.  I think sub 19 is fantastic and the work you put in for it is beyond a worthy effort.....but you still weren't sub 18, which is what we are talking about.  So even with your stellar work you couldn't get there.

My son lined up for his first 5K at 14 years old....had never ran more than 2 miles in his life, and I doubt he ever ran more than 2 or 3 days a week.  17:40.  At 15 he will break 4:30 in a mile this year and I suspect he'll go under 16 in a stand alone 5K (he's still working on his speed off the bike)....he still doesn't run 20 miles a week.  I'm not holding him up as the top of anything......I spend alot of time with/watching crazy fast kids. Many faster than him.  It's genetics.

The overwhelming majority of people, no matter how much they run, will never run a sub 18 5K.  The majority of the people who can do it can just run.....they were born to it.

Agreed 100%.  But a podium in a local triathlon is NOT a sub 18 5K.  In fact, I would absolutely agree than many, many people can get on the podium at a local triathlon if they work hard enough.....genetics be damned. 

That's a whole 'nother bone to pick apart because I can't count the number of people I've seen leave triathlon over the years because they podiumed a local race or two, thought they were headed to the top of the sport, spent crazy amounts of time and money, and then found out what fast really looks like.